“Taste good iny?”: Images of and from Australian Indigenous Literature Jared Thomas speaks with Teresa Podemska-Abt

TPA: Hi Jared, thanks for dedicat-ing this time.

JT:1RWDWDOODbSOHDVXUH

TPA: Tell me, have you ever met Db3ROLVKSHUVRQ"

JT: ,ijYH KDG WKH SOHDVXUH RI PHHW-LQJDbIHZ3ROLVKSHRSOHDQGHDFKDQG every one of them is very impressive. TPA: Would you tell me about your “meeting” with Polish culture, per-haps you have read some Polish lit-HUDWXUH"

JT: My engagement with Polish people and culture is minimal in comparison with my interaction with people of other cultures but YHU\ SRVLWLYH , ğUVW EHFDPH DZDUH of the plight of Polish immigrants DQGWKHLUFXOWXUHWKURXJKDbIULHQG-ship with young Australian Polish theatre director Magdalena Grub-VNL6WRULHVRI0DJGDOHQDijVSDUHQWVij immigration to Australia and their HIIRUWV WR FDUYH RXW Db SRVLWLYH OLIH for their family in the face of ad-YHUVLW\DUHUHPDUNDEOH0DJGDOHQDijV SDUHQWVijNH\FRQFHUQZKHQDUULYLQJ

to Australia was ensuring that their children become very skilled Eng-lish communicators. Subsequently 0DJGDOHQD LV WRGD\ Db VLJQLğFDQW creative and cultural producer liv-ing and workliv-ing in Tasmania. Most recent engagement with Polish peo-ple and culture is that of working with Australian Polish students. 6LPLODUO\ VWRULHV RI WKHLU SDUHQWVij immigration to Australia are fasci-nating and reveal much accomplish-PHQW ,b HQMR\ VSHDNLQJ ZLWK WKHVH students about how they continue to practise Polish culture and how they envisage maintaining cultural practice into the future. In terms of Polish literature and culture, I am DZDUH RI LWV ZHDOWK DQG ,b KRSH WR one day, experience it.

TPA: :KDWLV\RXUGHğQLWLRQRIOLW-erature, especially Aboriginal litera-WXUH"

JT: I grew upLQDbYHU\ZRUNLQJFODVV family with both parents being of Aboriginal ancestry. My maternal grandfather Jim Fitzpatrick was Aboriginal Irish and until his grand-parents landed in Australia and de-manded that my great grandfather

Jared Thomas Spea

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leave my great grandmother due to her Aboriginality, my grandfa-WKHU H[SHULHQFHG Db SULYLOHJHG ZHVW-ern education. He embedded in me DbUHVSHFWIRUWKHSRZHURIODQJXDJH articulation, story and reading while many of the people I grew up with in the working class town of Port $XJXVWD GLGQijW VHHP WR FDUH PXFK for these things. Due to this, I have always been interested in stories that transcend class and culture, and therefore I value not only the writ-WHQZRUGDVDbIRUPRIOLWHUDWXUHEXW oral stories. My paternal great uncles have been recorded singing stories that continue for weeks, as the sto-ries told of land and legends between the expanses of the Southern and Northern poles of Australia.

,QUHJDUGWRDbGHğQLWLRQRI$ER-riginal Australian literature, it is sto-ries written and told by Aboriginal people and stories that discuss any aspect of Aboriginal life, culture and imaginings. In fact, Dreaming stories are still the most important stories told by Aboriginal people because they impart so much valu-able knowledge about the land and our culture. I love reading works of ğFWLRQ ZKHUH WKH ZULWHUV LQFRUSR-rate elements of Dreaming stories, SODFHQDPHVDQGFXOWXUH0DQ\ğF- WLRQZULWHUVVXFKDV.LP6FRWW7HU-ri Janke, LarWLRQZULWHUVVXFKDV.LP6FRWW7HU-rissa Behrendt and of course Alexis Wright are doing this VRHIIHFWLYHO\:ULJKWijVZULWLQJLVLQ-fused with cultural knowledge and DOOQDUUDWLYHLVIUDPHGE\DbZRUOGLQ which dreaming continues rather

WKDQEHLQJSRUWUD\HGDVDbWKLQJRI the past.

TPA: Where do you think runs the borderline between Australian and $ERULJLQDOOLWHUDWXUHVLIWKHUHLVDQ\" JT: The writings of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are distinctly different to those authored by non-Indigenous au-thors because they draw on lived experience as Aboriginal and Tor-res Strait Islander people. There are many non-Indigenous writers that include Aboriginal characters and issues in their work but with-RXW EHLQJ $ERULJLQDO RU Db 7RUUHV Strait Islander I think it impos-sible to truly convey the voice of Indigenous people. And essentially we are speaking from two oppos-ing positions of those who have EHQHğWHG IURP FRORQLVDWLRQ DQG the dispossessed. The power held by Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal authors to comment on the nature of colonial Australia is inequitable as non-Indigenous writers often ZULWH IURP Db FXOWXUDO VWDQGSRLQW that is valued by the dominating status quo. The role of Aborigi-nal writers is to challenge the sta-tus quo. I would like to see more non-Aboriginal Australian authors acknowledge and surrender their privilege when writing about us and shared experience.

There are works by non-Abo-riginal authors that are important discussions of Aboriginal Australia

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7KH&KDQWRI-LPPLH%ODFN-smith E\ 7KRPDV .HQHDOO\ , DOVR

OLNH.DWKHULQH6XVDQQDK3ULWFKDUGijV

Coonardoo and Brumby Innes as

WKH\ SURYLGH Db JRRG GHVFULSWLRQ of the attitudes held by non-In-digenous people about Aboriginal Australia. To know of these atti-tudes is important when consider-ing where barriers exist between people and how to overcome them. (YHQ WKRXJK 3ULWFKDUGijV UHSUHVHQ-tations are sometimes questionable, she was challenging commonly held notions about Aboriginal Austral-ian and white AustralAustral-ian treatment of Aboriginal people. She must be commended for this.

It was unfortunate last year to KHDU 7KRPDV .HQHDOO\ VD\ WKDW KH regrets writing The Chant of Jimmie

%ODFNVPLWK. I think his regret stems

primarily from public expression by Aboriginal people and communi-ties that has built over the last ten or so years for people researching and writing about Aboriginal Aus-tralia to engage with them when doing so. There are some Aborigi-nal people that say outright that QRQ$ERULJLQDO SHRSOH VKRXOGQijW write about Aboriginal Australia, especially Dreaming stories or sto-ries with strong cultural elements. ,b WKLQN WKDW WKH PDMRULW\ RI $ER-riginal people understand that it LV YHU\ GLIğFXOW WR FHQVRU ZULWHUV though and therefore prefer that non-Indigenous people engage with them to ensure that the representa-tion has integrity.

TPA: What in your opinion identi-ğHV FRQWHPSRUDU\ $XVWUDOLDQ ,Q-GLJHQRXVOLWHUDWXUH"

JT: There are so many boundaries being pushed by Aboriginal writ-ers at the moment so innovation LVGHğQLWHO\RQHRIWKHNH\FKDUDF-teristics of contemporary Austral-ian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander literatures. Brenton Ezra 0F.HQQDIURP%URRPHZKRZULWHV graphic novels, for sure, has lately LPSUHVVHGUHDGHUV6LQFHPXFK of the work coming from Aborigi-nal and Torres Strait Islander Aus-tralia was autobiographical. Today WKHUHLVPRUHğFWLRQWKDQHYHUEH-ing produced. Aboriginal and Tor-res Strait Islander writers are em-ploying genres such as speculative, chick lit, horror and graphic novels to convey Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander history, culture and imaginings. Despite the variety of styles being used by authors be-WZHHQWKHZRUNVWKHUHLVDbVWURQJ link to country, community, culture and family that is conveyed. I feel new work differs to past works as there is greater desire to celebrate, challenge, investigate aspects of Aboriginal life rather than continu-ing to paint ourselves as victims. Some early Aboriginal litera-WXUHĽVXFK DV ZRUNV E\ 2RGJHURR Noonuccal, much of whose work , ORYHĽUHLQIRUFHV WKH SHUYDGLQJ

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attitudes of white Australians or presents inferiority to white peo-ple. There are some contemporary commentators that continue to do this but those Indigenous authors that are respected by their peers de-construct and provide opposition to ideologies that impede the aspira-tions of Aboriginal Australia. It is YHU\GLIğFXOWWRFULWLFL]H2RGJHURR though because much of her writing is so beautiful and powerful. Per-haps her prominent attitudes were Db SROLWLFDO SRHWLF HPSOR\HG WR HQ-gage and re-educate audiences.

In the last decade writers like 7DUD -XQH :LQFK DQG .LP 6FRWW have emerged. Their writing is so beautifully poetic. Tara is known as DbQRYHOLVWEXWKDVEHHQXQGHUWDNLQJ DbPHQWRUVKLSZLWKUHQRZQHGSOD\-wright Wole Soyinka. Swallow the

Air was an incredible success, and

I feel that given her ability, dedica-tion to craft and the experience she is gaining, her future works, like $OH[LV:ULJKWijV&DUSHQWDULD will set new standards.

In terms of innovation, Anita +HLVVij FKLFN OLW LV LQWHUHVWLQJ LW LV H[SRVLQJLWVHOIWRDbELJUHDGHUVKLS Anita would have to currently be $XVWUDOLDijV EHVW VHOOLQJ $ERULJLQDO writer. She has edited important Ab-original anthologies and produced an engaging critique of Aboriginal literature in recent years. She is so effective because she is one of the key advocates of Aboriginal writing LQWKHFRXQWU\DQGKDVDbJUHDWUDS-port with writers. I know that

Ani-ta is burning to write more literary works and critique but I think her work is so important because she is doing what most Aboriginal writers set out to do, which is to commu-nicate knowledge about Aboriginal $XVWUDOLDWRDbODUJHDXGLHQFHVRWKDW our future may be brighter.

TPA: What does it mean to be an Indigenous writer, and what kind RI UHVSRQVLELOLW\ GRHV VXFK Db UROH EULQJ":KDWDUHWKHSURVDQGFRQV RIDbPRGHODXWKRUDQGRUQDUUDWRU RU Db FKDUDFWHU WR YRLFH KLV RU KHU DXWKRULW\"

JT: %HLQJ Db 1XNXQX ZULWHU LV DbJUHDWUHVSRQVLELOLW\DV,DPRIWHQ mesmerized by the fact that the act of storytelling is one that assists Nukunu people to forge, maintain and progress an amazing culture that produces profound interaction and love between people and care of the environment. In 1XNXQX

warrala,Yura Muda is the term for

what is commonly referred to as the Dreaming. Yura means “man of the earth” and Muda means “coun-try.” Yura Muda means the connec-tion between people and land and land and people and our traditional stories reinforce this connection. 7KURXJK P\ ZULWLQJ ,b DWWHPSW WR articulate, reinforce and inspire oth-ers to activate these connections. ,bGRWKLVLQDbQXPEHURIZRUNVP\ new novel Calypso Summers, for

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MRXUQH\ RI Db \RXQJ 1XNXQX PDQ ZKR JHQHUDWHV Db JRRG HFRQRPLF base for his family through his knowledge of Nukunu culture and principle. I show how connection to country and the learning of cul-WXUDONQRZOHGJHHQULFKHVKLVOLIHĽ also by tapping into the mindset of young Nukunu and other Ab-original readers so that they can see WKHPVHOYHVUHĠHFWHGLQWKHFKDUDF-ter. Once young people can engage with characters and hopefully like them, I can then begin to challenge their views or present them with al-ternatives.

In the case of “The Healing 7UHHĵ ,b ZDQWHG WR FUHDWH V\PSD-thy for Alf so that the young read-ers, particularly Aboriginal people, could come to understand his ex-periences and hopefully not repeat them. This short story of course educates non-Aboriginal readers about Aboriginal Australia but it is ZULWWHQ ğUVWO\ IRU $ERULJLQDO SHR-ple. Due to the profound effect of colonisation, many Aboriginal \RXWK GRQijW KDYH WKH RSSRUWXQLW\ to engage with role models or learn about history or culture. Art and ğOPğOOWKLVYRLG

Due to the responsibility of my UROH P\ ZULWLQJ LV Db YHU\ FROOHF-tive enterprise. I ensure that many Nukunu people have the oppor-tunity to advise upon and amend representations so that my writing in turn possesses the authority of the group rather than myself. “The

Healing Tree” was built upon ac-tual experiences of an Aboriginal man outside of my group. In order to tell the story I spoke with him about my intent and asked his per-mission to write the story and to set it within the Nukunu context. ,b WKLQN LW LV WKURXJK WKLV SURFHVV that representations move toward closer representations of “truth” of Aboriginal experience rather than PHUHO\EHLQJDbFRQVWUXFWEDVHGRQ personal being, experience and ob-servation of Aboriginal life.

It would be false of me to say WKDW ,b GRQijW HQMR\ WKH DWWHQWLRQ that communicating Nukunu cul-ture brings but it is more satisfying to know that my representations are imbued with the principles of WKHFROOHFWLYHDQGSURYLGHDbOHJDF\ for future generations of Nukunu people and other Australians, both black and white, to engage with country and culture in the most meaningful way.

TPA: <RXU VKRUW VWRU\ Ĵ7KH +HDO-ing Tree”ĽIURPZKLFK,ERUURZHG Db SKUDVH IRU RXU FRQYHUVDWLRQijV WL-WOHĽVKRZV XQFRPPRQ JHQWOHQHVV FRQVLGHUDWLRQ VXEWOHW\ SHUKDSV" ,V this story an effect of traumas in your family, or is the narrator of the VWRU\DbFRPPXQDO,QGLJHQRXVYRLFH" JT: Firstly, thank you for your

 _{Thomas, Jared. “The Healing Tree.”}

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very generous commentary on the work. Perhaps the qualities that you have picked up in the writing GHULYH IURP Db QRQMXGJHPHQWDO VWDQFHWKDW,bVWULYHWRDGRSWLQUH-lation to most human experience. 7KH VWRU\ijV PDLQ IRFXV LV WKDW RI the effects of alcoholism as alcohol KDVEHHQXVHGDVDbGHYLFHWRGLVSRV-sess people of their connection to land and culture. While Aboriginal people today are less likely to drink alcohol in comparison to non-In-digenous Australians, the effects of drinking have touched almost all Aboriginal families, so there-fore while the story is told within the Nukunu context, I would like to think that it speaks to many Ab-original Australians.

Members of my family acknowl-edge the need to heal from what has happened to us as individuals or as DbJURXS<RXVHHLWLVLPSRUWDQWWR protect our safety by taking time out and resting and giving back to self. Aborigines often still experi-ence racism and sometimes this FDQUHDOO\SXW\RXLQDbEDGPHQWDO space. I personally still get very an-gry from time to time by the terri-ble things that continue to occur to Aboriginal people across Australia, such as the current Northern Terri-tory intervention.

I believe that spending time on country and reconnecting with country and culture is vital in our healing. It is also important that we as Aboriginal people take steps to heal ourselves rather than wait for

racism to disappear and the Gov-ernment to miraculously introduce Db UDIW RI SURJUDPV WKDW ğ[ HYHU\-thing.

TPA: The story starts from the voice of the uncle, the elder who is brought WRWKHVFHQHE\$OIijVPHPRU\RIKLV rebellious youth, and ends up with the wish of an old, sick Alf, for his tormented heart to be cured by

yir-tas, the magic healing trees his father

once taught him about. Does this envelope-like structure of the story mean that the most powerful voice RIWKHVWRU\LVWKHWUDGLWLRQDOYRLFH" JT: Simply the answer is yes. ,b EH-lieve that before the advent of capi-talism and its historic key driving forces, colonisation and slavery, cul-tures everywhere had through trial DQGHUURURYHUWKHDJHVUHğQHGZD\V of living that best utilized resources and accommodated human life and HQYLURQPHQWDOVXVWDLQDELOLW\,bKRSH to constantly remind people that the IRUVDNLQJRIOLIHPRGHOVWKDWEHQHğW-ed entire communities and nations WRGD\RQO\EHQHğWYHU\IHZDQGWKH only way to maintain human and environmental sustainability is to re-vert to the traditional or at least un-derpin the contemporary with tra-GLWLRQDOYDOXHV$OIijVMRXUQH\EULQJV him to the realization of the value of his culture and the traditional.

7KHFKDOOHQJHIRUPHDVDbZULWHU with future works is to show how FXOWXUHFDQFRH[LVWLQDbFRQWHPSR-rary world and create better

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non-Aboriginal people.

TPA: What are lingual realities of $ERULJLQDO OLWHUDWXUH" 'RHV WKH use of Aboriginal English or Indig-enous languages add to the author-ity and/or authenticauthor-ity of narration DQGRUKHURHV"

JT: I understand how language adds to the authority and authenticity of narration and I guess that my use of the Nukunu language does lend to an authority and authentic-ity. However, I use 1XNXQX warrala wherever it is appropriate, not to heighten the authority of my writ-ing but to ensure that the Nukunu readers can see their culture re-ĠHFWHGLQP\ZULWLQJ7KHUHDUHIHZ Nukunu language speakers and my incorporation of 1XNXQX warrala is intended to prolong and revital-ize this language. I particularly like XVLQJ 1XNXQX ZRUGV IRU VSHFLğF landmarks as it assists in reinforc-ing connection to our country. The way that Aboriginal English differs to mainstream is probably most evident when watching Aborigi-nal Theatre. When writing for an Aboriginal theatre company there is more scope than when writing Db QRYHO DQG KDYLQJ WR GHDO ZLWK agents and editors to infuse the work with the language, speech pat-terns and idiosyncrasies of particu-ODU FXOWXUDOJURXSV 9LYLHQQH &OHY-HQijV%LWLQij%DFNLVDbZRQGHUIXOUHDG because the dialogue is so rich and

UHYHDOVVRPXFKDERXWSHRSOHVijYDO-ues. It is interesting to note that the novel was an adaptation of her play which maybe reinforces my theory.

In my novel for children that will be released by Oxford Univer-VLW\ 3UHVV LQ  1XNXQX ZD\V of thinking are explicit through language. Thirteen-year-old Dallas 'DYLV LV DVNHG WR DVVLVW Db VFLHQWLVW in the protection of the Eucalyptus

albens, an almost extinct eucalypt

in Nukunu Country. When the sci-HQWLVWVHHVDbELUGĠ\IURPDbWUHHKH asks what the Nukunu words are for “tree” and “bird.” He learns that the bird and tree have an individ-ual name but the general term for bird and tree is ita. The scientist is FRQIXVHG 'DOODV ğQGV WKLV VWUDQJH and says that they are named the VDPH WKLQJ EHFDXVH WKH\ FDQijW OLYH ZLWKRXW HDFK RWKHU ,W LV Db VLPSOH concept but these uses of language really do inform of Aboriginal worldview, in this case the way that Aboriginal people value symbiotic relationships.

TPA: /HWijV SRQGHU Db ELW PRUH RQ powers that interplay within the VWRU\ijV VWUXFWXUH QDUUDWLRQ DQG FKDUDFWHUV,WVHHPVWKDW$OIDbPDLQ character, has got the least autho-ULDOSRZHUVWREHOLVWHQHGWRWKXVĽ WR VSHDN LV LW EHFDXVH KH FDQijW EH WUXVWHG FDQijW VHW DQ H[DPSOH IRU ER\V"$OIijVYRLFHLVZHDNGHFHSWLYH

 _{A variation of the word yirta used in}

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and at times bitter, while his unhap-py story is told validly. How much didactic, politics and (hi-)story is WKHUHLQWKLVVWRU\"

JT: Alf is powerful in that his voice represents the voice of the dispos-sessed and silenced. The power of his voice lies not in what is present EXWZKDWLVDEVHQW$OIijVH[SHULHQFHV are common to many Aboriginal people, particularly men who are completely disenfranchized. They have spent their childhood in insti-tutions separated from families and culture and are shunned from so-ciety as adults. Itinerant, they seek work or acceptance in places only WREHFRQWLQXDOO\UHMHFWHG7KHUH-ally sad thing about Alf is that his OLIHEHJDQZLWKDbUHDOO\VWURQJFXO-tural base. His father was nurturing as was the land he lived in but the realities of western society for Ab-original people meant that he was marginalized.

In Aboriginal cultures the right to speak is activated by possession of knowledge, experience, and par-ticipation in certain cultural events, age and connection to certain parts of country. Alf is detached from all that is good about his cultural her-itage and once he realizes this, it is too late to change his life.

Today, many of the barriers that were in place for Aboriginal people to participate in their cul-ture no longer exist. It is my hope that young people again begin to feel proud about speaking about

culture and knowledge authorita-tively. It really is heartening when \RXKHDUDb\RXQJSHUVRQVSHDNLQJ about their culture and land with passion.

TPA: “The Healing Tree” has one of the most beautiful, poetic, soft, loving images of the Australian ODQGVFDSH ,ijYH HYHU UHDG 7KH SLF-ture reveals itself when Alf comes back home, which, shockingly, is Db PLVVLRQ ,ijOO FRPH EDFN WR WKLV Indigenous reality later.) Through $OI ijV H\HV RQH VHHV Db SDUWLFXODU URDGKLOOVUDQJHVbbbb7KLVLVDbODQG GHSLFWHG ZLWK WKH H\H RI Db YLVXDO DUWLVW ,b NQRZ WKDW \RX DUH Db PDQ RI PDQ\ JLIWVĽDQ DFDGHPLF QRY-elist, play writer, poet, teacher. Do \RX SDLQW RU PDNH ğOPV SHUKDSV" ,bZRXOGQijWEHVXUSULVHGLI\RXGLG as many Indigenous writers work simultaneously in different art disciplines. David Page composes, ZULWHVGDQFHVGLUHFWVVLQJV,ZDV amazed with his 3DJH, brilliantly combining oral traditional story-telling and contemporary genres RI GUDPD PXVLFDO DQG SRS VKRZ Sally Morgan is an academic and Db SDLQWHU 6DP :DWVRQĽDQ DFD- GHPLFWHDFKHUDFWLYLVWZULWHUğOP-PDNHU DQGĽRQ WRS RI LWĽPRVW ,QGLJHQRXVSHRSOHVSHDNDbIHZODQ-guages. Can you comment on the Indigenous concept of creation, philosophy and beliefs behind tal-ent and on the oral tradition genres in contemporary Indigenous artis-WLFUHQGHULQJ"

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schmaltzy pop songs or some such WKLQJ DQG VKHijV SUREDEO\ RQ WKH money. Traditionally Nukunu chil-dren would have the opportunity to partake in all aspects of social life DQG RQFH Db WDOHQW ZDV GLVFRYHUHG this would be fostered. I experiment LQDbORWRIDUWLVWLFPHGLXPVDQGKDYH DbKHDOWK\DSSUHFLDWLRQIRUDOO,KDYH made some documentaries relat-ing to life and culture of Nukunu people and have been involved in various capacities in the making of ELJ$XVWUDOLDQIHDWXUHğOPV,bSDLQW DbOLWWOHEXWGRWKLVPRUHIRUSHUVRQDO HQMR\PHQWUDWKHUWKDQIRUSXEOLFH[-hibition.

0\ GDXJKWHU 7LOO\ 7MDOD LV VKRZLQJJUHDWSURPLVHDVDbVLQJHU DFWUHVV DFWLYLVW DQG VWRU\WHOOHUĽ DQG ,b PXVW HQFRXUDJH DOO RI WKHVH things.

The semiotician Marshal McLu-han is renowned for the phrase “the PHGLXPLVWKHPHVVDJHĵDQG,bWKLQN that Aboriginal artists such as Gor-don Hookey and Richard Frankland have truly adopted this philosophy. Richard is an amazing singer/song-ZULWHU DXWKRU DQG ğOPPDNHU DQG Gordon is the master of combining text and image.

My parents both dabble in paint-LQJ ODQGVFDSHV DQG RQH FDQijW KHOS but be inspired and motivated by the wealth of artistic talent amongst Aboriginal Australia. Most of my professional life has consisted of facilitating the work of Aboriginal artists of all forms.

TPA: Who is the Indigenous writ-HUDUWLVW" ,V VKH Db EDUG" :KDW LV her/his assigned place within the ,QGLJHQRXV VRFLHW\" ,V VKH Db VSH-cial person, what status does s/he KDYH"$OVRKRZLVDQLPDJHRIDQ artist constructed by Indigenous art DQGOLWHUDWXUH"

JT: “Our future is our culture and our culture rests in the hands of RXU VWRU\WHOOHUVĵ 7KLV LV Db SUR-found statement shared with me by ZRPHQRIWKH$QDQJX3LWMDQWMDWMDUD <DQNXQ\WMDWMDUD /DQGV WKDW ,b IHHO sums up perfectly the reverence Aboriginal people have for our sto-rytellers. Aboriginal paintings, for example, do not exist in isolation from Dreaming or cultural stories. Importance is attributed to paint-ings in respect to the importance of the story or the degree of knowl-edge possessed by the person paint-ing/telling the story.

There are many Aboriginal peo-ple that possess great storytelling ability but I am so often over-whelmed by the power of stories told me every day by Aboriginal people about everyday life or cul-tural experience. It is for this rea-son that many Aboriginal people with writing ability begin their writing careers by documenting the stories of family members. Our lives are so rich with story. All ar-tistic statements stem from story. So in Aboriginal culture storytell-ers are considered the most im-portant of artists and perhaps the

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most esteemed people in the com-munity.

TPA:/HWijVJREDFNIRUDbPRPHQWWR WKHLPDJHVRIODQGVFDSLQJZKLFKĽ IURPP\UHDGLQJVĽDUHSDUWLFXODUO\ YLYLG LQ $ :ULJKWijV Carpentaria, . 6FRWWijV True Country or Herb :KDUWRQijVUnbranded. Land is of-WHQDbSUHGRPLQDQWIHDWXUHLQPDQ\ Indigenous literary works. It rep-resents Indigenous mythology and philosophy. How does the literary concept of Land represent Indig-enous culture, philosophy, beliefs DQGVSLULWXDOLW\"+RZGR\RXLQFRU-SRUDWH WKLV FRQFHSW LQ \RXU ZRUN" ,VLWLPSRUWDQWWR\RXLQZKDWZD\" JT: I know that I see Nukunu land differently than non-Nukunu and it is important to me to articulate the way that I see and think about country. My traditional county is more than plants, animals and geo-ORJLFDOIRUPDWLRQVLWLVIXOORIVWRU\ my lifeblood, ancestry and nour-ishment. It is the umbilical cord to the inner workings of self. There is DbVWRU\IRUHYHU\WKLQJWKDWH[LVWVRQ country and these stories highlight the way people interact with and see the world.

7KHğOPTen Canoes for example focuses on stories relating to parts of the landscape that in turn underpin an all-encompassing worldview. Nukunu people call each little story relating WR ODQG SODQWV DQLPDOV DQG REMHFWV

Dangora. Each story needs to be

con-sidered in relation to each other and

it is through these stories that under-standings and discourses evolve. 7KHUHijV Db VPDOO VHFWLRQ LQ P\ QHZ novel Calypso Summers where the central character Calypso is travel-ling with his girlfriend and they see two guldas, sleepy lizards. Calyp-VRijV FRXVLQ LQIRUPV WKDW guldas al-ways walk together in the direction of water and they mate together for life. This brief discussion about the lizards reveals Nukunu philoso-phies about love and how knowl-edge relating to animals enables people to live with their landscape.

$OH[LV :ULJKWijV OLWHUDU\ SRZHU not only lies in communicating the way that Aboriginal people view FRXQWU\EXWZHVWHUQREMHFWV

TPA: Evidently, Land is represent-HGLQDbYDULHW\RIDUWHIDFWVWKDWDOVR constitute politics. Alexis Wright said: “I believe that Aboriginal government can work in Austra- OLDbbbb,bIHHOWKDWWKHTXHVWIRU$ER-riginal government is relevant and important for the future stability of our people . . . and that I can use ZKDWHYHUVNLOOV,KDYHDVDbZULWHUWR portray in literature how this dream could be lived.” _{What is your}

un-derstanding of this opinion and in ZKDWZD\ZRXOG\RXVXSSRUWLW"

 _{Wright, Alexis. “Weapon of Poetry.”}

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successful Aboriginal governance is achieved. Pre-colonial Aboriginal government must have been very ef-fective as we all share the Dreaming and it is known that many groups came together for ceremony and to trade and share resources. The prin-ciples of our governance are known to many but there are pressures that impact on the effectiveness of peo-ple to work together. I love reading ERRNVOLNH.HYLQ*LOEHUWijVBecause

Db:KLWH0DQijOO1HYHU'R,W that

ex-amine Aboriginal governance and KRZ $ERULJLQDO SHRSOH DUH VXEMHFW to government policy.

I feel that it is critical for Abo-ULJLQDO ZULWHUV WR IXUWKHU SURMHFW Db SRVLWLYH YLVLRQ RI KRZ $ERULJL-nal Australia can look like. Hope is critical to all people and where problems appear insurmountable, it is important for people to know that they can succeed. Thus, self-determination is very important to Aboriginal people. The concept of it means that we have access to good housing, health and education but are free to maintain and reinvig-orate culture and language.

My next novel will be about how life could be if Aboriginal people, in this case the Nukunu, live the life we wish, devoid of opposition from gov-ernment and western notions of ap-propriate education, spirituality and aspiration being imposed upon us. TPA: Aboriginal literature some-times “paints” land with the shapes

RI Db ZRPDQ 'LYLQH 6HUSHQW DV ,b XQGHUVWDQG LW LV Db PDQLIHVWDWLRQ of Indigenous cosmologies but also KDVDbVWURQJIHPLQLQHHOHPHQWLQLW What kind of mythical, metaphori-cal and/or symbolic connections between such images of land and DQFHVWUDOVQDNHVFDQEHPDGH"

JT: In Nukunu cosmology, there is both male and female serpent ances-tors. The serpents are even believed to change gender for particular pur-poses. It is Nukunu belief that the Flinders Ranges and other geogra-phy such as creeks and islands along the coast were created by these an-FHVWRUV :RQJLKDUD LV Db VLJQLğFDQW site on Nukunu Country and it is the place where the snake ances-tor gave law to Nukunu people.

:RQJLKDUD literally means “where

the snake spoke” and the Nukunu are often referred to as “the snake people.”

Stories about the deeds, trials and tribulations and creations of the rainbow serpent are very com-mon acom-mongst Aboriginal groups. ,bFDQijWVSHDNIRURWKHUDXWKRUVEXW ZKHQ ,b ZULWH DERXW WKH ODQGVFDSH in connection with serpents, it is because it is Nukunu belief that serpents formed the landscape and it certainly looks as if it was created by giant serpents. There is country in the Flinders Ranges that actu-ally looks feminine and masculine in accord with the gender of the serpent that travelled through the landscape.

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TPA: There are no women in your VWRU\:K\"

JT: There are strong women in other of my stories and Nukunu FXOWXUHLVEDVHGXSRQDbPDWULOLQHDO social organization so it is some-thing that I have upmost respect IRUĴ7KH+HDOLQJ7UHHĵLVDbVWRU\ pitched at young men. I have won-GHUIXODXQWLHVWKDW,bZRXOGOLNHWR write about and some of the docu-PHQWDULHVWKDW,bKDYHPDGHFDSWXUH these characters.

TPA: <RX KDYH PHQWLRQHG $QLWD +HLVVij FKLFN QRYHO +HU KHURLQH Alice, is unusually strong. A free, knowledgeable woman. To what ex-WHQWLVVXFKDbKHURLQHSRVVLEOHLQUHDO ,QGLJHQRXVOLIH":KDWLVKHUFXOWXUDO DUFKHW\SH":KRLVWKHERVVLQ,QGLJ-HQRXVFXOWXUHVijUHODWLRQVKLSV"$QJHO 'D\DQG1RUPDO3KDQWRPDbFRXSOH from Carpentaria, live in separate ZRUOGV ZHOO PHQijV DQG ZRPHQijV worlds. “Only when she had gone, was he able to understand that the ZRPDQKDGDOZD\VEHHQDbKRUQHWijV nest, waiting to be disturbed.” How FORVHWRWKHFXOWXUDOUROHVRIDbPDQ DQG Db ZRPDQ LQ WKH UHDO ZRUOG LV 3KDQWRPijVUHĠHFWLRQ"

JT: With colonization, the gender roles of men were severely disrupted in comparison to those of women. The roles of men included conduct-ing rituals, educatconduct-ing and nurturconduct-ing children, and of course hunting. The basis for this activity is land as

all ritual and education related to it. Women performed similar roles to men but of course they had children and gathered for the family. I think it LVHDVLHUIRUZRPHQWRHQMR\VRPHRI WKHVHWUDGLWLRQDOUROHVZLWKLQDbFRQ-temporary context whereas men KDYHEHHQGLVHQIUDQFKL]HGWRDbGLI-ferent degree. In my family women have always been strong, tradition and family strong. This strength is the bonding element that has kept families together.

TPA: Some people say that Indig-enous cultures of Australia have survived and are sustaining due to ,QGLJHQRXVZRPHQijVH[WUHPHDELOL-ties to adapt to tragic/harsh condi-tions, their procreation power and the status within their respective communities. It seems that the au-thority of Angel Day comes from VXFKSRZHUVDQGĽLQUHJDUGWRKHU IDWHĽIURPWKHHOHPHQWWKDWXQLWHV the real with unreal, the real and ab-QRUPDO DQG LQ FRQVHTXHQFHĽWKH normal and paranormal. The line between different states of our in-dividual and collective human real-ity (physical, metaphysical, cosmic) is also expressed by the concept of Dreaming/Dreamtime that re-alizes itself in everyday life. How does this ontologically and episte-mologically complicated, complex female character comply with the Indigenous present and traditional ZRUOGV" :KHUH LV WKH GHPDUFDWLQJ OLQH EHWZHHQ WKH UHDO DQG ğFWLRQDO LQ$ERULJLQDOOLWHUDWXUH"

305

WKLVLQP\ODVWFRPPHQWbbbb$Q\-ZD\$QJHO'D\LVH[WUHPHO\VWURQJ she tries to survive in her very hostile environment. The real and ğFWLRQDO LQ $ERULJLQDO OLWHUDWXUH" ,bWKLQN,bZLOOKDYHWRJLYHLWIXUWKHU thought. I think the real is always HQFORVHG LQ ğFWLRQ ,PSRUWDQWO\ , GRQijW WKLQN RI WKH 'UHDPLQJ VR much as the metaphysical but rather the pragmatic. If we disconnect the belief that mythical ancestors creat-ed certain landscapes or performcreat-ed certain activities during creation time, the stories that exist from WKHVHĴP\WKVĵVWLOOSURYLGHDbZRQ-derful blueprint for human interac-tion. The Dreaming does provide DbZRQGHUIXOOHQVWKURXJKZKLFKWR QHJRWLDWH WKH ZRUOG DQG ,b EHOLHYH that some Aboriginal people believe in the Dreaming wholeheartedly and others believe in the power of the stories deriving from it.

TPA: While reading Indigenous lit-erary works I am most often on the verge of politics. Politics and ideas reside within the actual context of civilizations, and at the same time they co-create cultural reality. As Db UHVXOW RI ,QGLJHQRXV VXEMXJDWLRQ Indigenous Peoples lost their status, DQGĽWRVRPHGHJUHHĽWKHLUFXOWXUDO identity. But any acculturation pro-cess is always bilateral, thus it also affects the conqueror. On the verge RI ERWK FXOWXUHV Db QHZ FLYLOL]DWLRQ JURXSKDVEHHQFUHDWHGRQRQHKDQG this group pursues its original roots,

RQWKHRWKHUĽLWOHDQVRQLWVDFFXO-WXUDWLRQ KHQFHIRUWK Db QHZ FXOWXUH such as Indigenous contemporary literature has been created. How im-SRUWDQWLVWKLVNLQGRIFXOWXUDOĠRZ RVPRVLV LQğOWUDWLRQ RI WKRVH WZR worlds in your life and literary work, DQGLQ,QGLJHQRXVOLWHUDWXUH"

JT: The notion of “being caught between two worlds” is commonly bandied around in reference to Abo-riginal Australia. I would like to see DbUHYHUVLRQWRWUDGLWLRQDOSULQFLSOHV applied in the contemporary but the reality is that many Aboriginal peo-ple through circumstance embrace elements of western culture. I want to see non-Indigenous people accul-turate Aboriginal worldviews and ways of living. For this to occur, it UHTXLUHVDbPRYHPHQWRI$ERULJLQDO and non-Aboriginal people becom-ing politicized and contestbecom-ing the context of our “civilization.”

TPA: What do you think about the Australian literocritical postcolo-QLDO GLVFRXUVH" ,Q ZKDW ZD\ GRHV LW EHQHğW ,QGLJHQRXV DXWKRUV DQG OLWHUDWXUH" :KR LV HPSRZHUHG E\ this discourse, and to what extent do Indigenous authors use it in WKHLUFUHDWLYHZRUNV":KDWLQ\RXU opinion, are the advantages and dis-advantages of postcolonial literary interpretation strategies to Indig-HQRXVOLWHUDU\ZRUNV"

JT: 7KLVLVDbYHU\GLIğFXOWTXHVWLRQ to answer because I have to

con-306

sider it from the position of teacher and student, writer and peer. First ,b KDYH WR GHFODUH WKDW PDQ\ $ER-riginal people are very dubious about the term “post-colonialism.” There are so many things happen-ing in Australia that highlight that FRORQLVDWLRQ LV VWLOO Db IRUFH LQ PR-tion and Aboriginal people are in no better position to speak than we were twenty years ago. Now, Australia is still the only country in the Commonwealth not to have DbWUHDW\ZLWKLWV,QGLJHQRXVSHRSOH and the advancements and institu-tions gained by Aboriginal people IURP WKH ODWH V ZHUH VHULRXV-ly eroded during the years of the Howard government. The Rudd government continues to diminish Aboriginal self-determination, with support for the Northern Territory intervention being the best exam-SOHRIWKLV%ULHĠ\WKHLQWHUYHQWLRQ was implemented to stop so-called endemic sexual abuse of children and alcoholism reported by media. The Racial Discrimination Act was suspended and the army was sent in to support the government taking administrative control of seventy--three communities. Consecutively, doctors began examinations and Db KDQGIXO RI VH[XDO DEXVH YLFWLPV were revealed. More disturbing was WKDWRIWKHFKLOGUHQH[DPLQHG had severe health problems such DV WUDFKRPD DQG RWLWLV 7KLV KDVQijW been heavily reported in mainstream media and the question “how did Australians let the health of

chil-GUHQ EHFRPH VR SRRU"ĵ ZDV QHYHU asked. Government spending on WKHLQWHUYHQWLRQLVELOOLRQ\HW VXEVWDQFHDEXVHLVXSDQG more infants have been hospitalized for malnutrition.

Subsequently, communities are being told they will not receive housing until they sign forty year leases over their land. The issuing RI PLQLQJ OHDVHV KDV VLJQLğFDQWO\ increased during this period. For people in these communities, the exercise of colonial power is in full effect and it is due to this type of mistreatment of Aboriginal peo-ple and communities that the term “post-colonial” is abstract to Abo-riginal Australia.

1RZSRVWFRORQLDOLVPLVDbIRUFHG FRQFHSWDQGQRWDbUHDOLW\,WFHUWDLQ-O\LVQijWRQHLQYHQWHGE\$ERULJLQDO writers in relation to their work. Some see it as referring only to ZRUNVEHLQJZULWWHQLQDbWLPHZKHUH colonialism has passed and there are more opportunities for minori-ties and the marginalized to speak. If we look at postcolonial literature as that whereby Aboriginal writers are trying to articulate identity and reclaim our past, again, the postco-lonial theory becomes problematic as it has the potential to give rise to HVVHQWLDOLVWQRWLRQVRI$ERULJLQDOLW\ essentialism is what many Aborigi- QDOZULWHUVFKDOOHQJH<RXVHH$ER-riginal writers are largely responding to colonisation and being oppressed, mistreated and misrepresented and exposing silence and invisibility.

307

,bWKLQNWKDW$ERULJLQDOFUHDWLYHZULW-ers are more concerned with intro-ducing people to our epistemologies rather than considering western the-ory. Conversely, postcolonial liter-ary interpretation strategies can be useful in developing an understand-ing of works of art but I am often bemused when learning how others have deconstructed my work. They either make the work seem really more sophisticated than it is or they miss the point of it altogether.

,ijPLQWHUHVWHGLQSRVWVWUXFWXUDO-ist theory but would, for the most SDUW OLNH WR WKLQN LWijV RQO\ Db VXE-conscious consideration when writ-ing creatively. My experience is that many Indigenous people, not only Aboriginal Australians, are interest-ed in the way that language exposes our ideological values.

TPA:7KHUHLVDbORWRIGHEDWLQJRQ the issue of appropriation in local Australian literocritical discourse. Obviously Indigenous writers use Western literary techniques and devices, extending and innovating them, developing new narratives and poetics, incorporating Indig-enous languages, accommodating Standard English to convey Indig-HQRXV FXOWXUHERXQG VSHFLğFV DQG meanings. How do you see this SUREOHPDWLF"$OVRWKHHGLWLQJDQG publishing discourses seem to be as-sociated with the usage of language DQGQDUUDWLYHEXWLVWKHUHDbSROLWL-cal censorship in Australia in regard WR,QGLJHQRXVOLWHUDWXUH",Q3RODQG

writers of the socialist/communist HUDKDGWRXVHVSHFLğFFRGHVDQGOLW-erary devices for their messages to be decoded by readers.

JT: :LWKRXWDbGRXEW$ERULJLQDOZULW-ers and people generally colonize and use English words in unique ways. There are many words that exist within the Aboriginal vernacular such as maial meaning “native” or used to LPSO\ Db EDFNZDUGQHVV DQG gammon meaning “humbug” or “deception” that are today only used by Abo-riginal people. These are old English words that many Aboriginal peo-ple believe to be Aboriginal words. Ĵ'HDGO\ĵ LV VXFK Db FRPPRQO\ XVHG word, which is used to mean very good, impressive or excellent. My friend and fellow playwright Cathy Craigie believes Aboriginal Australia adopted this application of the word from the Irish.

In regard to censorship of In-digenous language and culture, my experience is that when working with mainstream agents and editors, $ERULJLQDOZULWHUVFDQKDYHDbEDWWOH on their hands to convey meaning. 6RPHWKLQJVMXVWGRQijWPDNHVHQVH to non-Aboriginal readers unless you live within the culture. For ex-ample, in the novel that I am writ-LQJP\DJHQWğQGVLWRGGWKDWWKH main Aboriginal character Calypso KDVQHYHUKDGDbUHODWLRQVKLSZLWKDQ Aboriginal girl. However, it is com-mon for many Aboriginal families to be cautious of their children having sexual relationships with other

Ab-308

original people. Traditionally, mar-ULDJHVZHUHEDVHGRQDbVWULFWVRFLDO organization and, with the effects of the Stolen Generations, it becomes PXFK PRUH GLIğFXOW WR DVFHUWDLQ ZKRLVDQGLVQijWUHODWHGWR\RX

,ijPLQWHUHVWHGLQZULWLQJDQRWKHU play in collaboration with an Abo-riginal theatre company. This time I want to ensure that the message is targeted at an Aboriginal audi-ence rather than striving to educate non-Aboriginal people about our is-VXHVDQGLQWHUHVWV,bLPDJLQHWKLVZLOO SURYLGHPHZLWKDbVHQVHRIOLEHUDWLRQ WKDW , KDYHQijW H[SHULHQFHG WKURXJK my writing to date.

TPA: *LYHQ ,QGLJHQRXV ZULWHUVij opinions on Indigenous literature as mirroring the truths of Indige-QRXVFRPPXQLWLHVijUHDOLW\ _{in what}

way should one read Indigenous literature, through what paradigm RUSULVP":KDWGRHVWKLVĴUHDOLW\ĵ PHDQLQDbOLWHUDU\ZRUN"

JT: Aboriginal people are so diverse and, like in all communities, there is DOZD\VDbUDQJHRIRSLQLRQVLQUHOD-tion to certain topics amongst peo-SOH,FHUWDLQO\GRQijWDJUHHZLWKWKH viewpoints of all Aboriginal people. In terms of looking at reality and WUXWKLQOLWHUDWXUHWKLVLVDbYHU\GLI-ğFXOW WDVN ,Q DGGUHVVLQJ DQ\ W\SH RI TXHVWLRQ ,ijG HQFRXUDJH SHRSOH

_{ ([SOLFLWLQ$OH[LV:ULJKWijV$QLWD+HLVVij}

'HQLV :DONHUijV DQG -DFN 'DYLVij SXEOLF DGGUHVVHVMXVWWRQDPHDbIHZ

to check facts, bias and agenda and see if there is some type of consen-sus among people on certain issues UDWKHUWKDQDVVXPLQJWKDWDbWH[WLV DbFRQVWUXFWRIDbSDUWLFXODULQGLYLGX-DOijVĴUHDOLW\ĵ

There are those non-Aboriginal historians and commentators that assert that colonization of Australia was devoid of massacres and that WKH6WROHQ*HQHUDWLRQVGLGQijWH[LVW DQGDbGHEDWHRQWKLVLVVXHLVWHUPHG the “history wars.”

It is so important that Aborigi-nal people and their writers and art-ists speak back to this view and that those stories known amongst the mob about early and more recent DFWVRILQMXVWLFHDUHVKDUHG

TPA: Can you tell what is the pic-ture of the Indigenous person in $ERULJLQDOOLWHUDWXUH"+RZGR\RX portray the indigene, in your liter-DU\DQGDFDGHPLFZRUN"+RZGRHV the literary Indigenous change the stereotype of the native that we know from Australian literature DQGDUW"

JT: My characters usually possess FKDUDFWHULVWLFVRIDbUDQJHRISHRSOH that I know. Again, Aboriginal peo-ple are so diverse today and many SDUWLFLSDWHLQDbUDQJHRIVXEFXOWXUHV For instance, there are Aboriginal surfers, punks and business wom-en. There is no one homogenous group. The thing that we all have in common is the experience and ef-IHFWVRIFRORQL]DWLRQ$QGWKHQ,ijG

309

commonality between Aboriginal SHRSOHLVWKDWPDQ\RIXVVKDUHDbEH-lief in the Dreaming from which Db UHVSHFW IRU WKH HQYLURQPHQW DQG SHRSOHĠRZV

TPA: Indigenous cultural roots were cut drastically. How does written literature and art attempt WRğQGDQGSDVVRQVRPHWKLQJHOVH WUDFHV RI WKH ROGHVW ZRUOG" )URP ZKHUHZKDW LV ZULWHUVij DQG DUWLVWVij NQRZOHGJH REWDLQHG" &DQ RQH UH FUHDWH URRWV" 2EYLRXVO\ WKHUH DUH cave drawings, songs, (hi-)stories, but are they enough to reconstruct ZKDWZDVORVW"

JT: There are many Australians that love to remind Aboriginal Aus-tralians of how much we have lost because it legitimizes further tak-ing of land and resources, etc. ,W HDVHV SHRSOHijV JXLOW 0\ H[SHUL-ence is that even amongst the Abo-ULJLQDOJURXSVijHDUOLHVWGLVSRVVHVVHG WKHUHVWLOOH[LVWVDbYHU\ULFKFXOWXUDO knowledge evident through the proliferation of traditional stories written in language and rich visual arts practice. In all Australian capi-tal cities, Aboriginal people of the area possess traditional stories and practise dance and art. So despite the huge changes that have hap-pened to the landscape, story and knowledge has survived.

The last thirty years has seen Db UHYLWDOL]DWLRQ RI $ERULJLQDO FXO-ture because people are no longer

VXEMHFWWRSROLF\DQGOHJLVODWLRQWKDW prevents them from engaging with family and therefore culture. A new cultural pride is emerging and many non-Indigenous people are support-ive of this development realizing that Aboriginal culture is the one truly unique thing about Australia.

In terms of recreating roots, ,b WKLQN WKLV LV SRVVLEOH )RU H[DP-ple, one can learn to speak another language at any time in their lives if DbVSHDNHURIWKHSDUWLFXODUODQJXDJH exists to teach the student. How-ever, it takes much time to become acculturated. Both Aboriginal and non-Indigenous recordings of Abo-riginal culture and language can be Db YHU\ XVHIXO WRRO LQ WKH UHYLWDOL]D-tion of cultures.

TPA: Can we concentrate on myth IRUDbOLWWOHZKLOH"7KHUHDUHVRPDQ\ things I would like to ask you about, and so small the space we can share ZLWKRWKHUVRQWKHSDJHVRIDbSHULRGL-FDO1DWXUDOO\DbUHDGHUFDQRQO\UHDG DbOLWHUDU\P\WKDVNQRZQIRUH[DP-SOH IURP :ULJKWijV RU :DWVRQijV QRY-els. This is so because myth always touches these areas of cultures that are best represented by the concept of sacred/secret. Both authors widely FDOOXSRQP\WKDVDbFRQVWUXFWLQJHOH-ment of the presented worlds of their novels. I understand that Indigenous P\WKLVOLYLQJLWLVEHOLHYHGLQOLYHG E\ ,QGLJHQRXV SHRSOH WRGD\ 'RQijW \RXWKLQNWKDWWKLVFDQFDXVHDbELWRI confusion to the outside culture read-HU"+RZZRXOGWKH\UHFRJQL]HWKDW

310

WKHP\WKLVUHDOWKDWLWLVQRWğFWLRQ EXWWKHZD\RIOLYLQJ"7KHVDPHTXHV-tion would apply to, for example, 'UHDPLQJRU:DONDERXWbb

JT: ,DOZD\VğQGWKLVTXHVWLRQDbELW perplexing because it is so easy for me to understand the role of myth in other cultures and their literature DQGWRUHVSHFWLWDVDbIUDPHZRUNIURP which people live their lives. Dream-ing or Yura Muda in the Nukunu context forms the framework for how Nukunu people live. Whether or not giant mythological characters formed the Australian landscape is irrelevant, what is important is rec-ognizing that the values inherent in WKHVWRULHVSURYLGHDbYHU\LPSRUWDQW framework for looking at and engag-ing with the world.

The term “walkabout” is com-monly used in an insulting manner by Australians. Many Australians use the term to describe someone who DFWV LQ Db UHFNOHVV RU DLPOHVV IDVK-ion. However, Walkabout is similar WR Db SLOJULPDJH ZKHUHE\ $ERULJLQDO people would learn and reinforce spiritual values by visiting and pay-ing homage to sacred sites. The act was given negative connotations to support slavery. Walkabout was Db VSLULWXDO GXW\ EXW LW ZDV ULGLFXOHG because it was seen as an activity that diminished servitude to white station owners or “employers” and therefore VORZHG$XVWUDOLDijVĴJURZWKĵ

TPA: At the beginning of our con-YHUVDWLRQ,VDLG,ijGFRPHEDFNWRWKH

gloomy/shocking element of the presented reality of “The Healing Tree,” the one that does not stop VWULNLQJ PH QDPHO\ Db PLVVLRQ EH-ing called home. Given the history of Indigenous people in Australia, ,bXQGHUVWDQGLWDV,bFDQFRPSUHKHQG orphanages being called home. But it still shocks me that such places may ever be called home! Anyway, what else is being pictured as home in In-GLJHQRXVOLWHUDU\DQGDUWZRUNV" JT: Home to me is the country from which thousands of generations of my ancestors were born and lived. The country nurtured and provided everything that one needs.

There are many “returning home” narratives being written by Abo-riginal people such as Terri Janke, Larrissa Behrendt, Fabienne Bayet-&KDUOWRQ (YHQ WKH ğOP YHUVLRQ RI -LPP\&KLijVBran Nue Dae directed by Rachel Perkins can be viewed as DbĴUHWXUQLQJKRPHĵQDUUDWLYH

There are also many representa-tions of home not being places but UDWKHUIDPLO\DQGSHRSOHDQG,bFHU-tainly feel like I am home when ,bDPZLWKIDPLO\ZKHWKHUZHDUHRQ country or not.

TPA: Some say that the true home-ODQGRISHRSOHLVODQJXDJH,VQijWWKLV true that the true motherland for Indigenous persons are their Land, 'UHDPWLPHDQG:DONDERXW"

JT: 7KLV LV Db SUREOHPDWLF FRQFHSW because many Aboriginal people do

311

OHDVWQRWĠXHQWO\+RZHYHUQRWEH-ing able to speak language does not GLPLQLVK RQHijV $ERULJLQDO LGHQWLW\ I feel very proud that I can name country in my traditional language and it does make me feel more con-QHFWHGWRSODFH,WijVDbJRRGIHHOLQJWR be able to name country in the same way that my ancestors did thousands of years before the arrival of Europe-ans to Australia.

TPA: Many Indigenous writers/art-ists, as you, are lucky to entertain crosscultural family, social, pro-fessional, creative relations. Can you tell how Indigenous visual im-ages, knowledge, movement/dance, sound/music/silence converse in \RXUZRUNDQGOLIH",UHIHUWRDbFRQ-cept of oneness of an act and act-LQJ Db SHUVRQ ZLWK Db EHLQJ 'RHV “to see” mean “to hear, paint, and VSHDNĵ"2USHUKDSVĴWRKHDUĵPHDQV ĴWRVSHDNSDLQWDQGVHHĵ",QRWKHU ZRUGVZKHUHLVWKHUHIRU\RXDbVHS-DUDWLQJOLQHEHWZHHQDbGUDZLQJDQG DbZRUGDFWLQJDQGEHLQJH[LVWLQJLQ DUWDQGOLWHUDWXUH"$QGLQ$ERULJL-QDOOLWHUDWXUHDQGOLIH" JT: ,ijYH KDG PRPHQWV WR UHDOO\ consider who I am and how I live, knowing that I could change these things if I desired. I feel blessed that my passion for Aboriginal culture and how I approach life has never ZDYHUHG 0\ HQJDJHPHQW LVQijW KD-ELWXDOLWijVLQQDWH,DPDbZULWHUEXW

,bFDQijWVHSDUDWHRWKHUIRUPVRI$ER-riginal art and culture from the way I see, understand and experience. ,bEHOLHYHWKDW1XNXQXFXOWXUHSUR-YLGHV Db JRRG EDVLV DOVR WR YHQWXUH out into the world and interact with people of other cultures because it teaches reciprocity, that worldviews differ between groups, this is ac-ceptable and something that one FDQEHQHğWIURP

I have faith in my dreams that Nukunu and other Aboriginal peo-ple will again live our lives to the fullest.

TPA: 7KDQN\RXLWKDVEHHQDbIDVFL-QDWLQJWUDMHFWRU\:HFRXOGFHUWDLQO\ say “a very intense but short rela-WLRQVKLSĵ EXW IRU VXUH Db FURVVFXO-tural one! It taste good iny"

JT: Hope that my insights have been inspiring to you to further read and engage with Aboriginal Australia and I hope to one day YLVLW 3RODQG DQG H[SHULHQFH ğUVW KDQG3RODQGijVULFKDUWLVWLFDQGOLW-erary tradition. For now, QKDNDGMD,