A C T A U N I V E R S 1 l A f I S L О O Z I £ N S IS F Ü L I A LIT T E R A R TA 29, 1 9 9 0 E l ż b i e t a O l e k s y A TA LK W I T H W A L K E R P E R C Y 1 W a l k e r P e r c y m a d e h i s d e h u t in f i c t i o n w i t h "The M o v i e g o e r " , t he 1 9 6 2 N a t i o n a l B o o k A w a r d n o v e l . T h i s a n d o t h e r n o v e l s , w i t h t h e e x c e p t i o n o f “ The L a s t G e n t l e m a n " , is s e t in th e S o u t h , P e r c y ' s n a t i v e r e g i o n . H e w a s b o r n in 1 9 1 6 i n A l a b a m a . O r p h a n e d by b o t h m o t h e r a n d f a t h e r at the a g e of f i f t e e n , h e w a s a- d o p t e d by h i s s e c o n d c o u s i n , W i l l i a m A l e x a n d e r P e r c y , a lawyer, p l a n t e r a n d m a n of l e t t e r s . Th e P e r c y s w e r e e s p e c i a l l y f a m o u s in t h e M i s s i s s i p p i D e l t a r e g i o n . L e g a l p r o f e s s i o n h a g b e e n th e h e r i t a g e of s e v e r a l g e - n e v a t i o n s of t h e P e r c y s ; t h e y h a v e b e e n a p r o g r e s s i v e f a m i l y v i v i d l y c o n c e r n e d w i t h t h e s o c i a l a n d p o l i t i c a l l i f e o f t h e D e l t a . T h e r e c e n t l y l o c a t e d f a m i l y p a p e r s in t h e w a r e h o u s e o f the c o t t o n c o m p r e s s at G r e e n v i l l e , M i s s i s s i p p i , p r o v i d e n e w i n s i g h t s i n t o t h e f a m i l y h i s t o r y . Of s p e c i a l i n t e r e s t is a p r i n t e d c o p y of t h e s p e e c h g i v e n b y S e n a t o r L e R o y P e r c y at G r e e n v i l l e C o u r t h o u s e . It w a s m e a n t to c o u n t e r t h e r a c i s t s p e e c h of C o l o n e l J o s e p h G. C a m p , a n a g e n t of the K u K l u x K l a n . P e r c y ' s a t t a c k w a s f o r m i d a b l e ; it d r o v e C a m p o u t of the c o u r t -h o u s e a n d o u t of G r e e n v i l l e . Th e t r a d i t i o n o f N e g r o s u p p o r t re-m a i n e d in t h e f a re-m i l y . W i l l i a m A l e x a n d e r P e r c y , w h o w a s n o t a p o l i t i c i a n l i k e h i s f a t h e r L e R o y , f o u n d h i s o w n w a y o f a s a i s t -1 A v e r s i o n o f t h i s i n t e r v i e w in P o l i s h a p p e a r e d in " L i t e -r a t u -r a n a ś w i e c i e " 1 9 8 7 , No. 5- 6, p. 4 1 1 - 4 2 2 . 2 P e r c y ' s o t h e r w o r k s : “ Th e M e s s a g e iri t h e B o t t l e " ( 1 9 7 5 ) , " T h e L a s t G e n t l e m a n " ( 1 9 6 6 ) , “ L o v e in th e R u i n s " (1971), " L a n -c e l o t " ( 1 9 7 7 ) , " T h e S e c o n d C o m i n g " ( 1 9 8 0 ) , " L o s t in t h e C o s -mos. T h e L a s t S e l f - H e l p B o o k " ( 1 9 8 3 ) a n d " T h e T h a n ą t o s S y n -,d r o m e " ( 1 9 8 7 ) .
in s the N e g r o e s . H i m s e l f a p o e t arid a u t h o r of t h e fan.ous " L a n -t e r n s o n -t he L e v e e " , h e h e l p e d p r o m o t e y o u n g t a l e n t e d b l a c k p o e t s . W a l k e r P e r c y c o n t i n u e d t h i s t r a d i t i o n . P e r c y s t u d i e d to be m e d i c a l d o c t o r b u t a f t e r g r a d u a t i o n in 1941 he c o n t r a c t e d t u b e r c u l o s i s w h i l e w o r k i n g a s a n i n t e r n in the p a t h o l o g y s e c t i o n of B e l l e v u e H o s p i t a l . T h i s w a s t h e t u r n -ing p o i n t of h i s life . He s p e n t tw o y e a r s , a n d t h e n a n o t h e r y e a r at a s a n i t a r i u m w h e r e for m o n t h s he s a w o n l y t h e n u r s e . T h o u g h h e s t a r t e d p u b l i s h i n g h i e w o r k 3 m u c h la t e r , h e d i s c o v -e r -e d h i s r e a l v o c a t i o n in th e s e c l u s i o n of th e s a n i t a r i u m . Th e r e a d i n g of t h i s p e r i o d l e f t a t r e m e n d o u s i m p r i n t o n h i s o w n w r i t i n g , a n d h e r e a d m o s t l y w r i t e r s w h o a r e n o w l o o s e l y i d e n -t i f i e d as e x i s t e n t i a l i s t s : K i e r k e g a a r d , O o s t o i e v s k i , M a r c e l , B u b e r , S a r t r e . C a m u s an d , as he fo r th e f i r s t t i m e a c k n o w -l e d g e s in this i n t e r v i e w , P a s c a -l * . E l ż b i e t a O l e k s y : M o s t i n t e r v i e w s w i t h y o u b o i l d o w n to q u e s -t i o n s a b o u -t e x i s -t e n -t i a l i s m . W h a t h a s a l w a y s i n t r i g u e d m e , a n d I d o n ' t b e l i e v e y o u h a v e e v e r s p o k e n a b o u t it, is the p r e s e n c e of P a s c a l in y o u r w r i t i n g . W a l k e r P e r c y : Yes, i t ’s true . P e o p l e u s u a l l y a s s o c i a t e me m o r e w i t h K i e r k e g a a r d t h a n th e y do w i t h P a s c a l , b u t P a s c a l is at l e a s t as i n f l u e n t i a l as K i e r k e g a a r d . Of c o u r s e , K i e r k e g a a r d is m u c h m o r e a s s o c i a t e d w i t h E u r o p e a n e x i s t e n t i a l i s m t h a n P a s -ca l . I t h i n k m y m a i n d e b t to P a s c a l is, p e r h a p s , h i s i m a g e of a m a n in a c e l l , a m a n i m p r i s o n e d . W h a t w o u l d s u c h a m a n do, w h a t S h o u l d he d o ? Say, he h a s t en d a y s to li ve . H o w s h o u l d he s p e n d h i s t i m e ? W e l l , P a s c a l s a i d m o s t m e n w o u l d s p e n d t h a t t i m e p l a y i n g c a r d s or b e i n g d e p r e s s e d , b u t P a s c a l w o u l d sa y: " W e l l , I w o u l d s p e n d m y t i m e t r y i n g to f i g u r e o u t h o w I c a m e h e r e , w h y I a m h e r e " . Of c o u r s e , he w a s c o m p a r i n g t h e p r i s o n -e r ' s j a i l c e l l to ou r life . H e w a s s a y i n g h o w p e o p l e h a v e a g e n i u s f o r d i v e r t i n g t h e m s e l v e s . 3 E. M o u n i e r in " E x i s t e n t i a l i s t P h i l o s o p h i e s . A n I n -t r o d u c -t i o n " ( L o n d o n 1 9 4 0 ) c o n v i n c i n g l y a r g u e s t h a t t h e e x i s -t e n -t i a l i s -t -t r e e c a n b e t r a c e d b a c k d o w n a g a l l e r y of a n c e s t o r s a m o n g w h o m w e f i n d St. A u g u s t i n e a n d th e S t o i c s , P a s c a l a n d K i e r k e g a a r d , b e f o r e t he t r u n k d i v i d e s i n t o s e v e r a l v e r s i o n s of c o n t e m p o r a r y e x i s t e n t i a l i s m . H e c l a i m s t h a t w i t h th e a d v e n t of P a s c a l w e c o m e r i g h t u p to m o d e r n e x i s t e n t i a l i s m .
E .0.,: T h is is w h y I a s k e d y o u a b o u t P a s c a l . It s e e m s t h a t in " T h e M o v i e g o e r " yo u p l a y w i t h P a s c a l i a n c o n c e p t s . Y o u p r e s e n t a rattier h u m o r o u s v e r s i o n of P a s c a l ‘a c o n c e p t s of " d i v e r s i o n s " a n d " m e d i o c r i t y " . W . P . : ü u i t e tr ue. I c o m b i n e P a s c a l a n d K i e r k e g a a r d . K i e r k e -g a a r d h a s h i s p l a y f u l , b u t a l s o s e r i o u s , n o t i o n s of w h a t he c a l l s " r o t a t i o n " a n d " r e p e t i t i o n " . I u s e t h a t w i t h B i n x B o l l -i n g -in " T h e M o v -i e g o e r " . A l t h o u g h B i n x h a d n ’t r e a d K i e r k e g a a r d h e w a s v e r y m u c h a w a r e of " r o t a t i o n " a n d " re p eti tion ",. H e d i d it p l a y f u l l y , l i ke t a k i n g a g i r l f r i e n d to a m o v i e - h o u s e w h e r e h e h a d n ' t b e e n f o r ye a r s . Hr w o u l d t a lk a b o u t t h i s s t r a n g e f e e l i n g of c o m i n g b a c k to t hi s s a m e m o v i e - h o u s e . He e v e n r e -m e -m b e r e d the seat-, h e m a d e the p o i n t of s i t t i n g in t h e s a m e s e at . It w a s s e r i o u s in th e wa y t h at it m a d e h i m t h i n k of h o w c u r i o u s it w a s t h at f i f t e e n y e a r s s h o u l d h a v e l a p s e d b e t w e e n the l a st t i me h e w a s t h e r e a n d t h e p r e s e n t t i me . It m a d e h i m t h in k a b o u t t he n a t u r e of ti me . W h a t is t i me l i k e ? T h i s t i m e is p a s s e d a n d w h a t ara I d o i n g ? T h i s is w h e n h e b e g a n , as P a s -c a l w o u l d sa y, t.o t a k e li f e s e r i o u s l y . T h a t ’s w h e n h e b e g a n h i s s e a r c h . I n s t e a d of t a k i n g h i s s e c r e t a r i e s o u t h e b e c a m e t i re d, as Р з з с а ! w o u l d s a y, o f h i s d i v e r s i o n s . £ . 0 . : Y o u s h a r e w i t h P a s c a l , K i e r k e g a a r d , a n d o t h e r e x i s -t e n -t i a l i s -t s th e m i s t r u s t of p r o g r e s s , t he c o n v i c t i o n of the u n r e l a t e d n e s s of s c i e n c e to the h u m a n c o n d i t i o n . (Joes e x i s t e n -t i a l i s m o f f e r a n y s o l u -t i o n s as r e g a r d s the h u m a n c o n d i t i o n ? In o t h e r w o r d s , is t h e r e an y d i r e c t c o n t r i b u t i o n to p h i l o s o p h y w h i c h s h o u l d b e d e s c r i b e d as e x i s t e n t i a l i s t e t h i c s ? W . P . : Of c o u r s e , y o u h a v e to r e a l i z e t h a t e x i s t e n t i a l i s m h a s g o t t e n to be a b a d w o r d . I d o n ’ t k n o w a n y s e r i o u 3 p h i l o s -o p h e r s w h o e v e n u s e it a n y m o r e an d I d o n ’ t k n o w a n y s e r i o u s w r i t e r s w h o w o u l d c a l l t h e m s e l v e s e x i s t e n t i a l i s t s . T h e w o r d is u s e d so l o o s e l y n o w t h a t it m e a n s a l m o s t n o t h i n g . I d o n ’t u s e t he w o r d e i t h e r . W h a t I s a y in my w r i t i n g , b o t h in t h e f i c t i o n a n a n o n - f i c t i o n , is t h at the s c i e n t i f i c m e t h o d is g o o d f or u n -d e r s t a n -d i n g the w o r l -d . Bu t th e s c i e n t i f i c m e t h o d c a n n o t u n -d e r s t a n -d t he i n d i v i d u a l h u m a n b e i n g . T h at is the f o r m of e x i s -t e n -t i a l i s m . It g o e s b a c k to w h a t K i e r k e g a a r d s a i d a b o u t Hege l.
He r e g a r d e d H e g e l as the t h i n k er , the s c i e n t i s t of h i s day. W h a t he s a i d a b o u t H e g e l I w o u l d sa y a b o u t s c i e n c e . H e g e l e x -p l a i n s e v e r y t h i n g u n d e r the s u n e x c e p t w h a t it is to b e a ma n, o r a w o m a n , to be b o r n i n t o t h is w o r l d , to liv e , a n d to di e. I p u t it d i f f e r e n t l y : W h a t p e o p l e d o n ’t r e a l i z e is t h at th e s c i e n t i f i c m e t h o d h a s no wa y of u t t e r i n g o n e w o r d a b o u t an i n -d i v i -d u a l c r e a t u r e . S c i e n c e o n ly а р е а к з a b o u t l e a v e s , o r s t a r s , o r p e o p l e in s o f ar as t h ey b e l o n g to a c l a s s . In o t h e r words, s c i e n c e is o n l y i n t e r e s t e d in yo u in so far a s y o u a r e l i ke a n o t h e r c l a s s of p e o p l e . B u t s c i e n c e i t s e l f c a n n o t u t t e r o n e w o r d a b o u t t he i n d i v i d u a l s e l f in so far as it is i n d i v i d u a l . It l e a v e s a h u g e l e f t - o v e r . We a l m o s t a u t o m a t i c a l l y b e l i e v e t ha t s c i e n c e is not o n l y ou r b e s t w a y of k n o w i n g t h i n g s b u t, m a y b e , th e o n l y w a y at k n o w i n g t h i n g s . If a t h i n g c a n n o t b e k n o w n s c i e n t i f i c a l l y , we b e l i e v e it c a n n o t b e k n o w n at all. T h a t ' s th e g e n e r a l t o r t u r e th at we l iv e in. O r , h e r e , in A m e r -ica, a n y w a y . E .O . : H a s e x i s t e n t i a l i s m o f f e r e d a n y s o l u t i o n s as r e g a r d s th e h u m a n c o n d i t i o n ?
W .P ,: Yes, it h a s d o n e so. S a r t r e d i d it. H o w e v e r , I d o n ' t q u i t e a g r e e w i t h S a r t r e . I ' m n o t s u r e t ha t he d i s t i n g u i s h e s b e t w e e n m o r a l a n d i m m o r a l ac ts , t h e s e ar e n o t th e w o r d s t h at h e t a k e s v e r y s e r i o u s l y . In my n o v e l s , my h e r o e s f i n d t h e m -s e l v e -s in the e x i -s t e n t i a l -s i t u a t i o n of b e i n g m o r e or l e s s alone. M o s t m o d e r n n o v e l s a r e a b o u t p e o p l e w h o a r e a l o n e . They a r e in t h e m i d d l e of a b i g ś o c i e t y y e t th e y ar e, to u s e a f a s h i o n -a b l e w o rd , -a l i e n -a t e d ; t h e y d o n ’t f e e l the y b e l o n g to t h at s o -c i e t y , or t he town , or e v e n a f a m i l y . It c a n a l s o be s a i d t h a t t h e y ar e l i v i n g in a p o s t - C h r i s t i a n w o r l d w h e r e t h e e t h i c s of C h r i s t i a n i t y ar e n o l o n g e r as s t r o n g as th ey w e r e a h u n d r e d y e a r s ago. N a p o l e o n w a s p r o b a b l y a n e x c e p t i o n . C h r i s t i a n i t y is n o t as p e r v a s i v e as it o n c e was. By th e w ay , d o y o u k n o w a G e r -m a n w r i t e r , R o -m a n o G u a r d i n i ? E . Ü . : Y e s ? W . P . : I u s e h i m as a n e p i g r a p h to, I th i n k , " T h e L a s t G e n t -l e m a n " . He is t a -l k i n g a b o u t an e x i s t e n t i a l p r e d t c a m e n t . H e s a y s w e a r e l i v i n g in a p o s t '- C h r i s t i a n w o r l d w h e r e p e o p l e a r e a l o n e bu t h e a l s o sa y s , a n d t h i s is an i m p o r t a n d th i n g , i t ’s the
w o r l d w h e r e t h e r e is l e s s d e c e p t i o n ; p e o p l e a r e a l o n e an d, ye t , t h ey a r e c a p a b l e of f o r m i n g t r u e r e l a t i o n s h i p s . O n e l o n e l y p e r s o n f i n d s a n o t h e r l o n e l y p e r s o n . F r o m t h i s v e r y l o n e l i n e s s , t h i s e x i s t e n t i a l a l i e n a t i o n , t h e r e is p o s s i b l e a t r u e c o m m u n -ion, w h i c h in a w a y is e v e n b e t t e r t h a n It u s e d to be , w h e n e v e r y b o d y l i v e d in t h e s a m e s y s t e m , e v e r y b o d y u n d e r s t o o d o n e a n o t h e r , s a y, in t h e n i n e t e e n t h c e n t u r y E u r o p e . E v e n i n t h i s t e r r i b l e t w e n t i e t h c e n t u r y , w i t h t h e s e t e r r i b l e w a r s , m i l l i o n s of p e o p l e b e i n g k i l l e d , s t i l l , the p e o p l e I w r i t e a b o u t f i n d a c e r t a i n l i f e , a n d it n e a r l y a l w a y s i n v o l v e s s o m e o n e e l s e . W h a t do t h e F r e n c h c a l l it? " S o l i t u d e a d e u " . A n d b e t w e e n t h e t w o t h e y c r e a t e a n e w w o r l d . At the e n d of " I h e S e c o n d C o m i n g " it t a k e s p l a c e t h r o u g h th e r e c o v e r y of C h r i s t i a n i t y . It h a p p e n s w i t h m o s t p e o p l e , in f ac t . M o s t of u s a r e b r o u g h t u p i n a C h r i s t i a n b a c k g r o u n d . In t hi s c o u n t r y i t ’s m o s t l y n o m i n a l , i t ' s p a r t of the c u l t u r e . S o m e p e o p l e g o to c h u r c h , y o u k n o w . B u t i t ’s n o t a v e r y i m p o r t a n t p a r t o f l i fe . E . O . : Y o u ’ve t a l k e d a b o u t a l i e n a t i o n , a l o s s o f f a i t h . Y o u ’ve a l s o t a l k e d a b o u t c o m m u n i o n b e t w e e n t w o l o n e l y p e r s o n s . M o u l d y o u a g r e e t h a t in r e s p e c t to p h i l o s o p h i c a l b a c k g r o u n d y o u r f i c t i o n r a n g e s f r o ® P a s c a l a n d K i e r k e g a a r d , t h r o u g h C a m u s a n d S a r t r e , to M a r c e l , h i s c o n c e p t of c o m m u n i o n ? W . P . : A n d M o u n i e r . A n d a l s o t h e J e w i s h p h i l o s o p h e r , M a r t i n B u b e r . Ha w a s the o n e w h o h a d t h e " I - T h o u " c o n c e p t . Yes, y o u ’re r i g h t . T h i s is w h a t h a p p e n s . It is t h e e v o l u t i o n f r o m a n o m i -n al C h r i s t i a -n i t y to a l o s s of C h r i s t i a n i t y , a l o s s o f f a i t h , i s o l a t i o n , a l i e n a t i o n . M a y b e f i r s t a h u m a n r e l a t i o n s h i p ; a m a n f i n d s a w o m a n , o r s o m e t h i n g a b o u t h e r , or a w o m a n f i n d s a m a n o r s o m e t h i n g a b o u t h i m . I t ' s n o t l i k e St . A n t h o n y in a d e s e r t w h o g o e s t h e r e a n d f i n d s G o d a ll a l o n e . E x c e p t t h a t t h i s is w h a t W i l l B a r r e t t t r i e s to d o in " T h e S e c o n d C o m i n g " . F i r s t h e t r i e s to f i n d G o d a l o n e in t h e c a v e . Y o u s e e , he t a k e s Р а з с а 1 v e r y s e r i o u s l y . E . O . : Y e s , h e c a l l e d P a s c a l " t h e o n l y F r e n c h in te ll ect ua l w h o w a s n o t i n s a n e ” . B u t t h e n , a l t h o u g h W i l l is a t t r a c t e d to P a s -c a l ’s i d e a of m a k i n g a b e t o n G o d ’s e x i s t e n c e , he, W i l l B a r -re t t , w a n t s to k n o w f or su r e . W . P . : I ’ve f o r g o t t e n w h e t h e r h e m e n t i o n s P a s c a l . Ye s , I
t h i n k h e d u e s m e n t i o n P a s c a l . Bu t he s a i d P a s c a l w a s n o t g o o d e n o u g h . P a s c a l t r i v i a l i z e d th e s i t u a t i o n . He s a i d : "Either G o d e x i s t s or G o d d o e s n ’t. If G o d d o e s n ’t exista it d o e s n ’t m a t t e r . Y o u m a y j u s t a s w e l l b e t that G o d e x i s t s . So, w h a t h a v e y c u go t to l o s e ? If G o d exists y o u won, if G o d d o e s n o t e x i s t it d o e s n ’t m a t t e r a n y w a y " . Th at a l w a y s s t r u c k m e an a l i t t l e s i l l y . It s t r i k e s W i l l B a r r e t t as s i l l y . H e sa y s : " I ’u r n o t g o i n g to m a k e a w a g e r li k e t h a t a n d h o p e t h a t in t h e e n d I w i n, I am g o i n g to f i n d o u t n ow " . A n d h e sa i d : " I s t h e r e a n y - r e a s o n w h y I can't a s k G o d to s h o w H i m s e l f ? " A f t e r a l l , th at h a p p e n e d in the O l d T e s t a m e n t . G o d s h o w e d H i m s e l f . In th e N e w T e s t a m e n t , too. S o he p e r f o r m s t h i s r e a l l y n u t t y e x p e r i m e n t of g o i n g d o w n in the c a v e to g e t an a n s w e r f r o m Go d . My q u e s t i o n to t he r e a d e r a n d to y ou is: " D o e s he ge t ah a n s w e r f r o m G o d ? " E . 0 . s Y e s , h e d o e s , W . P . : W h a t ’s the a n s w e r ? E . O . : A t o o t h a c h e , i s n ’t it? W . P . : R i g h t . H e r e he is d e m a n d i n g G o d to m a n i f e s t H i m s e l f as if h e w e r e M o s e s or s o m e b o d y . A n d w h a t d o e s G o d g i v e h i m ? A t o o t h a c h e . A n d m a y b e t h a t ’s t h e b e s t t h i n g G o d co u ld have d o n e . So, to g e t b a c k to y o u r e a r l i e r q u e s t i o n , I s u p p o s e you c o u l d c a l l it e x i s t e n t i a l e t h i c s . Y o u s t a r t f r o m t h e s o l i t a r i -n e s s , t h e n t h e r e is a s e a r c h in t h e f a s h i o n of b o t h , K i e r k e -g a a r d a n d P a s c a l , t h e n t he h u m a n c o n n e c t i o n , th e h u m a n c o m m u n -i o n a n d t h e , f i n d i n g of G o d t h r o u g h t h a t h u m a n c o n n e c t i o n . E . G . : D o y o u t h i n k t h a t th e s h i f t of e m p h a s i s in c o n t e m p o -r a -r y A m e -r i c a n f i c t i o n f -r o m e t h i c s t o w a r d o v e r h e l m i n g a e s t h e t i c i s s u e s is in a n y w a y s i g n i f i c a n t c o n c e r n i n g the f u t u r e of fic-t i o n ? W . P . : I h a v e n o id e a w h a t t h e f u t u r e of f i c t i o n is g o i n g to be. I t h i n k e t h i c s h a s a l s o g o t t e n to b e a b a d w o r d . I ’m t r y -i n g to t h -i n k o f th e l a s t e t h i c a l n o v e l i s t , m a y b e s o m e b o d y l i k e H e m i n g w a y . H e h a d a v e r y s t r a n g e e t h i c s . H i s i d e a of e t h i c s w a s a m a n b e h a v i n g w e l l u n d e r s t r e s s . W h a t h a p p e n e d , th o u g h , wa s t h a t for the l a s t t h i r t y y e a r s or s o the q u e s t of t h e in tellec-t u a l s , w r i t e r s a n d r e a d e r s h a s n o t b e e n for e t h i c s , w h i c h they s e e as s o m e t h i n g i m p o s e d l i k e t e n c o m m a n d m e n t s , b u t fur
ati-t h e n ati-t i c i ati-t y , s e l f - r e a l i z a ati-t i o n . A lo t t h a t c a m e f r o m th e o l d e x -i s t e n t -i a l -i s t m o v e m e n t . “H o w to f i n d m y s e l f , w h o a m I", w e w e n t t h r o u g h t w e n t y y e a r s of t h a t in t h i s c o u n t r y w i t h t h e r e b e l l i o n o f t he s i x t i e s . A lot of s e l f - d e c e p t i o n w a s i n v o l v e d in t h i s m o v e m e n t . A n d th e n o v e l s t h a t c o m e o u t of it a r e v e r y s e ri ou s. A t y p i c a l w r i t e r is J a c k K e r o u a c . T h e r e is n o e t h i c s i n v o l v e d t h e r e , i t ’s a s e a r c h for a u t h e n t i c e x p e r i e n c e , o f f i n d i n g th e r i g h t p l a c e a n d th e r i g h t c o m p a n i o n , s o t h at n o w he c a n sa y: " T h i s is it, t h i s is t h e re al t h i n g " . By f i n d i n g it h e m e a n s t h at he h a s f o u n d the r i g h t s p o t in C a l i f o r n i a o r M e x i c o , he h a s th e r i g h t c o m p a n i o n s an d t h e y ’re d r i n k i n g t h e r i g h t b o o z e o r t a k i n g t he r i g h t d r u g s a n d t h ey h a v e g r e a t f e e l i n g s . T h a t s u b s t i t u t e d e t h i c s in th e A m e r i c a n n o v e l . £ . 0 . : Tp c h a n g e t he s u b j e c t , y o u r i n v o l v e m e n t a n d th e i n -v o l -v e m e n t of y o u r f a m i l y in t h e m o v e m e n t fo r c i v i l r i g h t s for th e biackf» in w e l l k n o w n . W h a t h a s i n t r i g u e d m e , h o w e v e r , is t h a t the b l a c k s f r e q u e n t l y a p p e a r in y o u r f i c t i o n a s b u t l e r s a n d h o u s e k e e p e r s . E l g i n , a g r a d u a t e f r o m M . I . T . , is at b e s t L a n c e l o t ’s c o n f i d a n t , n o t r e a l l y a f r i e n d . I s n ’t t h i s a p a t r o n -i z -i n g t r a i t in y o u r f i c t i o n ? W . P . : M a y b e it is. T h a t ’s th e w a y it w a s . T h o s e w e r e the b l a c k s th a t 1 k n e w w h e n 1 w a s g r o w i n g up . I m o s t l y w r i t e a b o u t y o u n g m e n a n d y o u n g w o m e n w h o g r o w u p in the t r a d i t i o n a l S o u t h -e r n -e n v i r o n m -e n t s . T h o s -e w -e r -e th-e k i n d s o f b l a c k s t h a t w e k n e w . I t ’s n o t q u i t e tr u e , t h o u g h . In " L o v e in t h e R u i n s " , w h i c h is a f u t u r i s t i c n o v e l , t h e r e is a k i n d of b l a c k r e v o l u t i o n , B a n t u r e b e l l i o n . T h o m a s M o r e h a s a few r e v o l u t i o n a r y f r i e n d s t h e r e . W i l l a r d A m a d i e a n d V i c t o r C h a r l e s g o f r o m b e i n g b u t l e r s , a n d h o u s e - b o y s , a n d w a i t e r s at the c o u n t r y c l u b to a c t i v e g u e r r i l -la f i g h t e r s . I g u e s s t h e s e a r e th e o n l y o n e s . Bu t , y o u k n o w , o n e w r i t e s a b o u t w h a t o n e k n o w s , I w a s n o t r e a l l y in t he a c -t i v e c i v i l r i g h t s m o v e m e n t . We h a v e a s m a l l i n t e r r a c i a l g r o u p h e r e , a f ew b l a c k s a n d a f e w w h i t e s , w h o t ry to d o s m a l l t h i n g s . M a y b e s o m e d a y I ’ll w r i t e a b o u t th a t . M y m a i n i n t e r e s t w a s a t r a d i t i o n a l r e l a t i o n s h i p a n d h o w t h a t c h a n g e d . A n y h o w , i t ’s v e r y d i f f i c u l t to w r i t e a b o u t c i v i l r i g h t s m o v e m e n t . Most of t h e n o v e l s w r i t t e n a b o u t th a t a r e n o t v e r y g o o d ; t h e y a r e f u l l of p a s s i o n a n d p o l i t i c s . A s n o v e l s t h e y a r e n o t t o o s u e
-c e s s f u l . I c a n ’t t h i n k of an y o f f h a n d t h at I g r e a t l y a d m i r e . In f ac t , the b e s t o n e s a r e n o t a b o u t p o l i t i c s a n d th e mo v e m e n t . I ’m t h i n k i n g a b o u t A l i c e W a l k e r ’s b o o k. E . O . : T h e C o l o r P u r p l e * ? W . P . : T h a t is a r e m a r k a b l e n o v e l . Ye t, s h e t a l k s a b o u t t h e s e v e r y b l a c k p e o p l e y o u ’ve m e n t i o n e d : b l a c k m a i d s , c o o k s , s e r -v a n t s . Th e w a y s h e s h o w s t h e i r r e l a t i o n s h i p s is w h a t I call g o o d fi ct ion . E . O . : Y o u ’ve m e n t i o n e d t h at t h i s m a y b e o n e of y o u r f u t u r e s u b j e c t s . A r e y o u w o r k i n g o n a n o v e l , r i g h t n o w ? W . P . : Yes. I ’m w o r k i n g t e n t a t i v e l y on a s e q u e l to " L o v e in t h e R u i n s " . I t ’s o n w h a t h a p p e n s to T h o m a s M o r e l a t e r . Y o u see, t h i s fo rm, the f u t u r i s t i c n o v e l , w h i c h is a l s o s a t i r i c a l , g i v e s m e a c h a n c e to t a l k a b o u t t h e S o u t h an d a b o u t t hi s c o u n t r y in t e r m s w h i c h a r e d i f f i c u l t to d o in a s t r a i g h t f o r w a r d novel. It g i v e s y ou a lo t of l a t i t u d e t o be s a t i r i c a l : a b o u t t he p o l -i t -i c s , a b o u t th e R e p u b l i c a n s a n d the D e m o c r a t s ; a l s o a b o u t m e d i c i n e a n d a b o u t s c i e n c e . E . O . : D o y ou c o n s i d e r y o u r f i c t i o n as p a r t o f th e S o u t h e r n h e r i t a g e ? Or, i3 it r a t h e r th at the w r i t e r , if h e is a n y g oo d , s h o u l d t r a n s c e n d l o c a l l i m i t a t i o n s a n d r e l a t e to the A m e r i c a n e x p e r i e n c e o r h u m a n e x p e r i e n c e as s u c h ? W . P . : T h a t ’s g o o d q u e s t i o n . A l s o , t h i s is the q u e s t i o n wh ic h a l w a y s f a c e s S o u t h e r n w r i t e r s . T h e S o u t h e r n w r i t e r is in a n i q u e p o s i t i o n in A m e r i c a n l i t e r a t u r e w h i c h is b o t h f o r t u n a t e a n d u n f o r t u n a t e . T h e f o r t u n a t e t h i n g is t h a t t he S o u t h e r n R e -n a s c e -n c e in l i t e r a t u r e o c c u r r e d r a t h e r r e c e n t l y , in tfte l a s t f i f t y y e a r s , b e g i n n i n g w i t h th e T e n n e s s e e p o e t s , th e N a s h v i l l e p o e t s ; T a t e a n d W a r r e n , a n d m a n y o t h e r s . Th e y w e r e g o o d p o e t s , a n d c r i t i c s , to o, w h o r e a l l y e s t a b l i s h e d m a j o r t r e n d s in A m e r -i c a n p o e t r y a n d A m e r i c a n c r i t i c i s m . T h en , of c o u r s e , F a u l k n e r c a m e a l o n g a b o u t t he s a m e tim e. T h a t ’s the f i r s t t i m e t h a t th e S o u t h b e g a n to e x p r e s s i t s e l f , in f i c t i o n . I a l w a y s t h o u g h t it w a s strange b e c a u s e b e f o r e t h e C i v i l W a r p e o p l e in t he S o u t h l i k e d to p r e t e n d t h a t we h a d a g r e a t c i v i l i z a t i o n . W h e r e w a s t h e ar t , w h e r e w a s th e p o e t r y , w h e r e w a s th e l i t e r a t u r e ? I b e t y o u w o u l d h a v e t r o u b l e n a m i n g a S o u t h e r n w r i t e r b e f o r e t h e C i v -il War. T h e r e w e r e n ’t a n y to s p e a k of.
E . O . s H o w a b o u t P o e ? W . P . : H e w a s n o t v e r y t y p i c a l . Bu t th a t w a s a g o o d t h i n g , t h is e n e r g y w h i c h s u d d e n l y f o u n d a v o i c e , n o t o n l y in t h e i r p o e t r y , in t h e i r c r i t i c i s m , w h i c h w a s u s u a l l y c o n s e r v a t i v e c r i t - i c i s n , b u t a l s o in the n o v e l s w h i c h w e r e m a i n l y o f F a u l k n e r . B u t a l s o of R o b e r t P e n « a r r e n , E u d o r a W e l t y , a n d v e r y i m p o r -tantly, F l a n n e r y O ' C o n n o r . T he u n f o r t u n a t e p a r t of it is t h a t S o u t h e r n w r i t i n g g e t s s t e r e o t y p e d in th e g e n e r a l A m e r i c a n v i e w of l i t e r a t u r e . W h e n yo u th in k of S o u t h e r n w r i t i n g , y o u t h i n k e i t h e r of o l d r o m a n t i c w r i t i n g , w h a t w e c a l l m a g n o l i a a n d m i n t j u l e p s , or of th e g o t h i c a n d b i z z a r e S o u t h e r n w r i t i n g , l i k e F a u l k n e r a n d O ’C o n n o r . A n d so, I d o n ' t l i k e t h e f a c t t h a t S o u t h -e r n w r i t i n g g e t s p i g e o n - h o l e d i n t o t h e s e c a t e g o r i e s . F o r i n -s t a n c e , 1 g e t u n e a -s y w h e n p e o p l e c a l l m e a S o u t h e r n w r i t e r b e -c a u s e I s a y : " W e l l , y o u d o n ’t c a l l , s a y , J o h n U p d i k e a N o r t h -e r n w r i t e r a n d n o b o d y c a l l s S a u l B e l l o w a M i d W e s t e r n w r i t -e r ". E . O . : T h ey c a l l h i m a J e w i s h w r i t e r a n d t h i s i s a l s o a c a t -e g o r y . W . P . : T r ue , b u t n o t as m u c h as, s a y, B e r n a r d M a l a m u d or P h i -l i p R o t h w h o a r e m u c h m o r e J e w i s h i n t h e i r t h e m e s . B u t, of c o u r s e , i t ’s t r u e , I a m a S o u t h e r n w r i t e r . I c o u l d n ’t w r i t e w h a t I w r i t e if I w a s b o r n in M o n t a n a . B u t Ï n o t i c e d a r e a l d i f f i c u l t y th a t N o r t h e r n r e v i e w e r s h a v e w i t h S o u t h e r n w r i t e r s . They l i k e to c a t e g o r i z e us i n t o o n e o r t w o p i g e o n - h o l e s , a n d if w e d o n ’t f i t t h e r e th e y d o n ’t k n o w w h a t to d o w i t h us. I s i m p l y w o u l d l i k e f or S o u t h e r n l i t e r a t u r e to b e l e s s p a r o c h i a l , s o t h a t y o u d o n ’t t hi n k o f it as b e i n g S o u t h e r n a n y m o r e th an y o u t h i n k o f U p d i k e an d C h e e v e r a s b e i n g N e w E n g l a n d . S u t I t h in k t h a t ' s c h a n g i n g . E . O . : T h i s r e m i n d s m e o f w h a t yo u s a i d o n c e a b o u t h a v i n g l i v e d a h u n d r e d m i l e s f r o m F a u l k n e r a n d h a v i n g b e e n m o r e i n -f l u e n c e d b y C a m u s t h a n F a u l k n e r . W . P . t I n a t ' s true . I r e a d t h e R u s s i a n s an d t h e F r e n c h b e -f o r e I r e a d F a u l k n e r , E . O . : Y o u ' v e t a l k e d a b o u t r e l i g i o n a n d th e b l a c k s . T h e s e a r e t y p i c a l l y S o u t h e r n th e m e s . T h e r e is y e t a n o t h e r S o u t h e r n t h e m e w h i c h , m y o u r f i c t i o n , c o m e s l a t e . I t ' s v i o l e n c e a n d
it t a k e s p l a c e to r th e f i r 3 t ti me in " L a n c e l o t " . Oo y o u t h i n k t ha t w r i t i n g a b o u t v i o l e n c e is a c a t e g o r i c i m p e r a t i v e on the p a r t of an A m e r i c a n n o v e l i s t ? W .P . : A p p a r e n t l y c o m m e r c i a l l y yes. It Is d i f f i c u l t to p i c k u p a n o v e l n o w th a t is n o t e i t h e r v er y v i o l e n t o r e x p l i c i t l y s e x u a l . B ut I d o n ’t t h i n k it applies, to the a r t of th e n o v e l . " L a n c e l o t " is v i o l e n t fo r p a r t i c u l a r r e a s o n s . I c h o s e h i m as a d i f f e r e n t k i n d of a r e be l . He, to o, is an o u t s i d e r . H e wa « an o u t s i d e r as m u c h as Bir>x B o l l i n g , a n d W i l l B a r r e t t a n d T h o -m a s M o r e . B u t t h ey w e r e P a s c a l i a n . T h ey h a d h o p e a n d t h e y h a d e m b a r k e d o n v a r i o u s k i n d s of q u e s t s . T h e o n l y q u e s t t h a t L a n -c e l o t is e m b a r k e d o n is, w h a t h e c a l l e d ! th e q u e s t of th e u n -h o l y g r a i l . He is a l s o a l i e n a t e d , he is an a l i e n a t e d S o u t h e r n -er. J u s t li k e B a r r e t t a n d B o l l i n g , h e d o e s n o t l i k e w h a t he s e e s a b o u t A m e r i c a n c i v i l i z a t i o n . He d o e s n ’t l i k e the v u l g a r -i z a t -i o n of c u l t u r e , a n d the i n c r e a s e in w h a t he s e e s as i m -m o r a l i t y , a n d th e c r o o k e d n e s s , c o r r u p t i o n , p o l i t i c s . But, u n -l i ke my o t h e r p r o t a g o n i s t , he d o e s n o t u n d e r t a k e an i n t e r i o r q u e s t . He is no t i n t e r e s t e d in Go d. So, h i s s o l u t i o n fo r h i s a l i e n a t i o n is a k i n d of f a s c i s m , or n a z i s m . In a wa y , h e a d -m i r e s the n a z i ; o n l y h e sa ys : " T h e n a z i s w e r e s t u p i d " . You k n ow , I s p e n t a s u m m e r w i t h the G e r m a n f a m i l y , the n a z i f a m i -ly w h e n I w a s a b o u t f i f t e e n . I s a w w h a t th e e a r l y n a z i m o v e -m e n t w a s like . A n d it w a s v e r y e x c i t i n g . W e l l , h e r e w a s the o l d W e i m e r r e p u b l i c a n d a l o n g c o m e s t h i s r e a l e l a n . I ’m t e l l -i n g yo u, t h a t w a s a v e r y e x c i t i n g t h i n g to see. E . O .; Yo u sa y y o u w e r e f i f t e e n at t h a t t i m e . D i d y o u e v e r c o m e to e v a l u a t e y o u r i n i t i a l f a s c i n a t i o n w i t h th e m o v e m e n t ? W .P . : Su r e , W e l l , M a r c e l w r i t e s a b o u t t h is . M a r c e l w r i t e s h o w it is v e r y e a s y to c o n d e m n H i t l e r , S t a l i n a n d t h e m a s s mo ve -m e n t s . H e d e s p i s e s th e m a s s m o v e m e n t s all o v e r E u r o p e . Bu t h e s a y s w h a t p e o p l e o v e r l o o k is th e e x c i t e m e n t a n d t he f a c t t h a t m a s s m o v e m e n t s a n s w e r to an e m p t i n e s s in a W e s t e r n so u l . So, he u n d e r s t o o d it a l t h o u g h h e is t h e l a s t m a n to a p p r o v e of it. A n d to h e a r th is f r o m M a r c e l w h o w a s F r e n c h , Je w, C a t h o l i c , e x i s t e n t i a l i s t , to h e a r h i m p r a i s i n g t he e x c i t e m e n t of n a z i s m is e x t r a o r d i n a r y . Of c o u r s e , t h e n it t u r n e d into s o m e t h i n g w h i c h w a s a b s o l u t e l y d e s t r u c t i v e . No w, w h a t I m e a n t to s a y w a s t h a t
L a n c e l o t s a w the g o o d s i d e of n a z i s m . H e s a y s t h a t t h e t r o u b l e w i t h t h e n a z i s m uf G e r m a n y w a s t h a t it w a s s t u p i d . E . Q . : T h i s is q u i t e a t h e o r y . W .P .: I ’m m a k i n g up s o m e of it. B ut L a n c e l o t d o e s s a y t h at t h e n a z i s w e r e s t u p i d ; t h e r e w a s n o n e e d to p e r s e c u t e the Jews. I t ’s s e n s e l e s s a n d c r u e l to k i l l s i x m i l i o n J e ws . W h a t y o u do is y o u d e s t r o y w h a t ’s e v il . He h a d t h i s n u t t y i d e a of s t a r t i n g w h a t h e c a l l e d the T h i r d R e v o l u t i o n w h i c h w a s g o i n g to m a k e A- m e r i c a c l e a n a n d w i p e c u t al l th e c o r r u p t i o n . H e m a k e s a b e -g i n n i n -g ; he w i p e s o u t h a l f of the H o l l y w o o d c r e w w h o c o m e d o w n t h e r e . E . Q . : It h a s a l w a y s s e e m e d to m e th a t w h a t y o u s a y in " L a n -c e l o t " is, in a w a y , k i n to M a i l e r ' s t h e o r y of t h e A m e r i c a n as h i p s t e r . Yo u k n o w , t h e n e w s u c c e s s m y t h b a s e d o n t h e d e m o n -s t r a t i o n of c o u r a g e a n d the p u r g i n g of v i o l e n t e m o t i o n s ; the li f e o n th e b r i n k of d e a t h a n d the d r e a m of o r g y a n d o f lo ve. M a i l e r ’s p r o t a g o n i s t , S t e p h e n R o j a c k , is l i k e L a n c e l o t , a G r a i l K n i g h t of a p a r t i c u l a r o r d e r , th e e s s e n c e o f h i s G r a i l - is- a s e x u a l sin. B u t it a p p e a r s th at , f r o m w h a t y o u ’ve s a i d , h e r e the a n a l o g y e n ds . tf.P.: W e l l , I w a n t e d it to b e an u p s i d e - d o w n q u e s t fo r Go d . L a n c e l o t s a y s to h i s f r i e n d , the p r i e s t : " D o n ’t g i v e m e a n y of t h a t s t u f f a b o u t r e l i g i o n or Go d . Th e o n l y w a y I c o u l d b e c o n -v i n c e d of it w o u l d b e if I c o u l d f i n d s o m e t h i n g t h a t , I b e -l i e v e , is a t r ue s i n. T h e n I m i g h t b e l i e v e in G o d " . I t ’s l i k e s a y i n g : "If I c a n f i n d the d e v i l . . . " E . O . : St. A u g u s t i n e s a i d this . T h e e x i s t e n c e of G o d c a n be p r o v e d oy th e e x i s t e n c e of ev i l . W . P . : R i g h t . T h a t ’s e x a c t l y it. H e ’s in the s a m e p r e d i c a -m e n t a s -my o t h e r p r o t a g o n i s t s , b u t h i s q u e s t i3 t u r n e d u p s i d e - - d o w n , i n s i d e - o u t . H e is s e a r c h i n g f or an a b s o l u t e e v i l . B u t he is a l s o a r e f o r m e r , in a w a y . He w a n t s to h a v e th e T h i r d R e v o l u t i o n . H e w a n t s the b e s t of t h e S o u t h to w i n . He is i m a g -i n -i n g h -i m s e l f l -i k e a C i v i l W a r s o l d i e r , a y o u n g m a n s u n t a n n e d , s t a n d i n g in th e g a p of a m o u n t a i n in V i r g i n i a . A s a matter of fa ct , I g o t it f r o m a H o l l y w o o d m o v i e , " C a b a r e t " , h a v e y o u s e e n it ? E . Q .: Y e s .
W . P . i " C a b a r e t " w a s a b o u t a r a t h e r d e g e n e r a t e B e r l i n s o c i e -ty b e f o r e H i t l e r . A nd , d o y o u r e m e m b e r ? T h e r e is a c a f e scene, A H i t l e r y o u t h g e t s up a n d s i n g s a s o n g . Th e s o n g g o e s l i k e t h i s s t o m o r r o w is m i n e , t o m o r r o w w i l l b e fr e e , t o m o r r o w is o u r s W e l l , t h i s is w h a t e x c i t e d L a n c e l o t . He p i c t u r e d h i m s e l f a s a g o o d n a z i w h o c o u l d a c c o m p l i s h a r e v o l u t i o n w i t h o u t d o i n g the a t r o c i t i e s of the G e r m a n s . E . Q . : Y ou h a v e o f t e n e m p h a s i z e d th at p e o p l e feel b a d in g o o d e n v i r o n m e n t s . L a n c e l o t t e l l s u s t h a t t h e o n l y t i m e m e m -b e r s of h i s f a m i l l y w e r e s u c c e s s f u l w a s d u r i n g t h e t i m e of wa r. B i n x B o l l i n g a c q u i r e s a s e n s e o f r e a l i t y a f t e r h i s c a r a c c i -d e n t . Th e e x a m p l e s p r o l i f e r a t e in y o u r f i c t i o n . D o y o u d e r i v e y o u r c o n v i c t i o n f r o m y o u r o b s e r v a t i o n of p e o p l e in g o o d e n v i -r o n m e n t s ? W . P . : S u r e . A l s o in b a d e n v i r o n m e n t s . W h o w a s it ? It w a s a E u r o p e a n p h i l o s o p h e r w h o sa id : " W h a t w o u l d m a n d o w i t h o u t w a r ? " W a r is m e n ’s g r e a t e s t p l e a s u r e . W o m e n h a v e a b e t t e r sense, y o u k n o w , w o m e n d o n ’t b e l i e v e t ha t . B e f o r e n o w w e h a d t h i s l u x u r y t h a t m e n c o u l d g o o u t a n d h a v e w a r w i t h o u t d e -s t r o y i n g t h e w h o l e w o r l d . Y o u c a n ’t d o t h a t no w. 1 c a n r e -m e -m b e r t h e e x c i t e m e n t of W o r l d W a r II. M y u n c l e w a n t e d u s to g e t in t h e w a r v e r y b a d l y . W h e n t h e J a p a n e s e b o m b e d P e a r l H a r -b o r w a s the f i r s t t i m e I ’d s e e n h i m h a p p y fo r a l o n g t i me . He w a s s i c k , it w a s s h o r t l y b e f o r e he d i e d . H e w a s d e l i g h t e d th at it h a d h a p p e n e d . E v e r y b o d y w a s d e l i g h t e d , e x c i t e d . It w a s m u c h m o r e t r u e w i t h t h e C i v i l Wa r, t h a t w a s t h e t i m e of th e g r e a t -e s t h a p p i n -e s s in t h -e So u t h . E . Q . : O n e o f t h e g r e a t e s t p a r a d o x e s , i s n ’t it ? W . P . i S u r e . Of c o u r s e o n l y h a l f of t h e m c a m e b a c k a n d the S o u t h w a s d e s t r o y e d . S o m e w h e r e I s a i d p e o p l e g e t t h i n g s b a c k -w a r d s . P e o p l e a r e a l w a y s s a y i n g : W h a t if t h e B o m b f a l l s ? E . O . : Y ë s, i t ’s in " T h e M a n on t h e T r a i n: T h r e e E x i s t e n -t i a l M o d e s " . Y o u r e v e r s e -th e q u e s -t i o n . W . P . : Yes. S u p p o s e t h e B o m b d o e s n o t f a il . W e l l , m y t h e o r y is t h a t m a n ’s n a t u r e , n o t w o m a n ’s, is s u c h t h a t h e g e t s b o r e d , a n d h e g e t s e x c i t e d by th e p r o s p e c t o f v i o l e n c e . W h y do yo u t h i n k t h e r e is v i o l e n c e o n t e l e v i s i o n ? B e c a u s e p e o p l e l i k e it. E v e r y t h i n g is d i f f e r e n t n o w b e c a u s e e v e n m e n r e a l i z e t h a t t h i s
w a r w o u l d b e t h e l a s t o n e. B u t I w a s a l w a y s f a s c i n a t e d by the e x c i t e m e n t o f w a r . T h e w o r s t t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d w a s t h a t ray t w o b r o t h e r s w a n t i n t o th e a r my . T h ey w e n t i n t o m o s t d a n g e r o u s b r a n c h e s of t h e s e r v i c e . O n e b r o t h e r f l e w a b o m b e r , t h e o t h e r b r o t h e r w a s o n t he P a c i f i c , o n a to rp e do boat. He was on the з а п ш s q u a d r o n as J a c k K e n n e d y , h e w a s K e n n e d y ' s f r i e n d , h e s a w K e n n e d y ’s b o a t g e t sh ot . A n d t h e r e I w a s l i k e C a s t o r p in " I h e M a g i c M o u n t a i n " , s i t t i n g o n a m o u n t a i n up in N e w Y o r k s t a t e .
I h a d ТВ. T h e y w e r e the h a p p y o n e s a n d I w a s th e u n h a p p y on e. T h e n , w h a t h a p p e n e d in 19 6A w h e n the V i e t n a m w a r c a m e a l o n g , t h e h a p p y o n e s w e r e the o n e s w h o g o t o u t o f it, w h o d i d n ’t go, w h o w e n t to C a n a d a . A n d t h e u n h a p p y o n e s h a d t o go . So, t h e r e ’s b e e n a c h a n g e . E . Û . : Y o u h a v e t i m e a n d a g a i n e x p r e s s e d t h is p a r a d o x s t i l l d i f f e r e n t l y , s p e a k i n g a b o u t th e b l a c k s , w h o , a s l o n g as t h e y d o n ’t l i ve u p to th e s t a n d a r d of t h e a f f l u e n t w h i t e p e o p l e d o n ’t h a v e t h e i r s h a r e of a l i e n a t i o n . T h e y ’re b e t t e r o f f ? W . P . : In a w a y b u t y o u h a v e a h a r d t i m e c o n v i c i n g a b l a c k p e r s o n of th at . I t h i n k w h a t T h o m a s M o r e is s a y i n g in " L o v e in the (iuins* to o n e of th e b l a c k r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s iss " Y o u t h i n k y o u ’ve g o t t r o u o i e . W a i t t i l l y o u g e t w h a t w e h a v e . W a i t t i l l y o u l i v e h e r e , in t h i s c o u n t r y c l u b . " W e l l , i t ’s tr u e . T h a t d o e s n ' t m e a n t h a t t h e r e is an y e x c u s e f o r t h e o p p r e s s i o n of the b l a c k p e o p l e . E v e n n o w , in s p i t e of t h e b l a c k r e v o l u t i o n , t h e r e is d i s c r i m i n a t i o n a g a i n s t t h e b l a c k s . H a l f of t h e y o u n g b l a c k s in N e w O r l e a n s a r e n o t e m p l o y e d , A n d t h e r e is s e r i o u s p o v e r t y - a c t u a l h u n g e r . It s e e m s a l m o s t o b s c e n e to t e l l s o m e -b o d y l i k e t h a t w h o is r e a l l y s u f f e r i n g t h a t i " W e l l , w e a f -f l u e n t , w h i t e p o e p l e h a v e o u r t r o u b l e s , to o , " T h a t d o e s n ’t m a k e a n y s e n s e . Bu t i t ’s t r u e t h at a a t h e b l a c k m i d d l e c l a s s a r i s -e s, a n d t h -e r -e a r -e b -e g i n n i n g to b -e m i d d l -e c l a s s w r i t -e r s , t h -e y ’ ll k n o w w h a t I ’m t a l k i n g a b o u t , E . O . ; C o n s i d e r i n g t h i s v e r y c o m p l i c a t e d c o n t e m p o r a r y s c e n e , w h a t is, to y o u , t h e r o l e o f a w r i t e r t o d a y ? W . P . i Ih e r o l e of a w r i t e r . W e l l , i t s e e m s to be, f o r m e a n y w a y , to a f f i r m p e o p l e , to a f f i r m th e r e a d e r . T h e g e n e r a l c u l t u r e of th e t i m e is v e r y s c i e n t i f i c , o n e m i g h t c a l l it " s c i e n t i s t i c " o n t h e o n e h a n d , a n d s i m p l y a e s t h e t i c a l l y o r i e n
-ted, on the? other. This do e s not s a t i s fy a c e r t a i n reader. Sn, the re ad er is left in the state of c o n f us io n . The contemporary st at e of a y oung Am e ri ca n ma n or w o ma n is that he or she has mo r e of the w o r l d ’s a f f l u en c e than any ot he r p e o p l e on this e ar t h and yet he is m o re d i s s a t i sf i e d , m o re re st less . He e x -p e r i e n c e s so me s ens e of loss wh ic h he c an n o t un d e r s t an d . For him, the tr a di ti on a l r e l i gi o n d oe s not h av e the answer. So the ro le of my ki nd of wr it er is to s pe ak to this p e r s o n ab out this wh ole area of e x p e r i e n c e that h e ’s at or s h e ’s at. This is wha t you feel, this is h ow you feel. now. My o r ig i n a l e x a m p l e in "The M e ss a g e in the Bo ttl e" is that you take a co mmu te r, the man on the train. He has e v er y th i n g, he suc ce ed e d. He lives in Gr ee n wi ch , Co nn ect i cu t . H e ’s m a k i n g a h u n d r e d t h o u -sa n d d o l l a r s a y e a r , a n d he c om es into New York e v er y day. H e ’s m o v e d into a be t t e r ho us e, to a b e t t e r c o u n t ry club, ha s a very nice wif e and ni ce kinds. He is r idi ng on this t rai n and he w o nder s: what am I do i n g? He can o pe n a n e w s p ap e r , and he ca n see a c o lu mn w h ic h say s s o m e t h i n g ab ou t the m i d l i f e c r i
-sis. He can read so me p o p u la r a dv i c e fr om a p o p u l a r p s y c h o l o -gist who w o ul d say wh y you ha ve your m i d - l i f e cr is is . But this d o e s n ’t s a ti sf y him. He pi ck s up a b o o k by an A m e r i c a n writer, Joh n Ma r q ua n d , w h i c h is about a roan like hi ms el f , a c o m mu te r on the tr ai n wh o ha s the s a me se n se of loss. So, I say that there is a t r em e n d o u s d i f f e r e n c e b e t w e e n a ma n on the train w h o is in a c e r t a i n p r e d i c a m e n t and the sa me ma n on the sam e train wi t h the sa me p r e d i c a m e n t wh o is r e ad i n g a book a bou t a man on the train, fhe role of a w ri t er is very mo de st. I t ’s to id en ti fy the p re d ic a m e nt . The le tte rs I get are fro m p e o p l e who say: I d i d n ’t kn ow a n yb od y who t al k e d like that, I k n o w what you mean, you h a v e d e s c r i b e d my p r e d i c a m e n t . I get le tters from the b u s i n e s s m e n (the m e n on the train), from y o un g men, and fr om y oun g w omen, and t h e y ’re e x c i t e d b e c a u s e I ’ve n a m e d th e pr ed i ca m e n t . That d o e s n ’t sound like much, t h a t ’s a very m o d e s t c o n t r i b u t i o n but i t ’s very i m po rtan t. You see, I ag ree w i t h Ki er k eg a a r d . He said: " I ’m not an ap os tl e, i t ’s not for m e to b r i n g the good news. E v en if I br o u g h t the go o d news, n o b o d y w ou l d be l i e v e i t ” . But the role of a n o v e l i s t , or an artist, for that mat ter, is to tell the truth, and to c on v ey
a k i n d of k n o w l e d g e *riich c a n n o t b e c o n v e y e d by s c i e n c e , or p s y c h o l o g y , or n e w s p a p e r s . E . O . : is t h i s e d i f y i n g ? W . P . : E d i f y i n g . Y o u * v e p i c k e d u p a l l t h e b a d w o r d s . W e l l , " e d i f y i n g " is a p e r f e c t l y g o o d w o r d , b u t it h a s v e r y b a d c o n -n o t a t i o -n s i-n E -n g l i s h . W e l l , in the l a r g e s t s e n s e , it is e d i f y -i n g, b e c a u s e i t ’s h e l p f u l , it c r e a t e s h o p e . At i t s b e s t i t ’s a f f i r m i n g , it a f f i r m s t h e r e a d e r in th e w a y h e o r s h e is at. It o f f e r s a n o p e n n e s s a n d s o m e h o p e . A n d t h a t ’s a b o u t a l l a n o v e l i s t c a n d o . C o v i n g t o n , L o u i s i a n a , M a y 8, 19 8 4 W a l k e r P e r c y r e m a i n e d a d o c t o r to t h i s d a y , a l w a y s d i a g -n o s i -n g a -n d a l w a y s p r e s c r i b i n g . H e d i a g n o s e d t h e m a l a i s e t h a t a f f l i c t s a c o n t e m p o r a r y A m e r i c a n as a l i e n a t i o n , a n d h i s p r e -s c r i b e d t h e r a p y is i n t e r s u b j e c t i v i t y , t h e I - T h o u r e l a t i o n s h i p . If h e is a w a r e t h at h e t a k e s h i s c u e f r o m e x i s t e n t i a l i s t s , h e a t th e s a m e t i m e e x e r c i s e s a d e g r e e o f c a u t i o n w h e n a p p l y i n g t h e t e r m t o h i s o w n w r i t i n g . A n d h e h a s g o o d r e a s o n s : f o r a l-m o s t two d e c a d e s t h e t e r m h a s b e e n u s e d w i t h w h a t m i g h t be c a l l e d i n t e l l e c t u a l p r o m i s c u i t y . It h a s b e e n a p p l i e d to t e x t s w i t h n o v i s i b l e s p e c i a l i z e d p h i l o s o p h i c a l i m p l i c a t i o n s , to w r i t e r s w h o n e v e r d e m o n s t r a t e d i n t e r e s t in e x i s t e n t i a l t h o u g h t p e r se. T h i s k i n d of c h a r l a t a n i s m P e r c y h a s in m i n d w h e n he s a y s t h a t e x i s t e n t i a l i s m is a " b a d w o r d " . B u t t h i s w r i t i n g ^ s e x i s t e n t i a l in th e s e n s e C a m u s ’n Q v e l s a r e e x i s t e n t i a l . T h e y a r e f i c t i o n a l r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s of p h i l o s o p h i c a l c a t e g o r i e s w h i c h , in P e r c y ’s c a s e , is a l l t h e m o r e d e c i p h e r a b l e as h e s o e a r n e s t l y t a l k s a b o u t h i s i n d e b t e d n e s s to e x i s t e n t i a l i s m . A s h e h a s s a i d in the i n t e r v i e w , h i s m a i n i n t e r e s t is 1л th e n u a n c e s of t he h u m a n c o n d i t i o n , in m a n a s a b e i n g c o n s t a n t l y s t r u c t u r i n g h i s e x i s t e n c e t h r o u g h th e choices t h a t h e m a k e s i n a n a b s u r d w o r l d . T h is , n e e d l e s s to sa y, is th e c r u x of e x i s t e n t i a l i s m . A b o v e a l l , P e r c y ’s f i c t i o n f u l f i l l s t w o f u n d a m e n t a l f u n c -t i o n s . W h i l e c o m p r i s i n g s u c h t y p i c a l m o t i f s in S o u t h e r n l i t e r -a t u r e -as r a c i a l p r o b l e m s , r e l i g i o n a n d v i o l e n c e , h i s n o v e l s
m o v e b e y o n d r e g i o n a l l i t e r a t u r e a n d h a r k o a c k to th e t r a d i t i o n in A m e r i c a n l i t e r a t u r e w h i c h s a y s " n o i n t h u n d e r " , as M o l v i l l e a n d H a w t h o r n e do. M o r e o v e r , in h i s d i s a p p o i n t m e n t w i t h s c i e n t i f i c - te ch nolof li cal h u m a n i s m , P e r c y r e v o k e s in h i 3 f i c -t i o n a p a s -t o r a l i de a l of o r d e r . In " I h e S e c u n d C o m i n g " , t wo a l -i e n a t e d c h a r a c t e r s , a » a n a n d w o m a n , r e c o n s t r u c t t h e i r l i v e s in a g r e e n h o u s e . T h i s is p r e c i s e l y th e p o i n t P e r c y w i s h e s to m a k e . In h i s o w n w o r d s : " T h e m o d e r n l i t e r a t u r e o f a l i e n a t i o n is in r e a l i t y the t r i u m p h a n t r e v e r s a l of a l i e n a t i o n i t s r e - r e p r e s e n t i n g . . . (I t ) is an a e s t h e t i c v i c t o r y of 4 l i n e s s , a r e c o g n i t i o n of p l i g h t in c o m m o n " . I n s t i t u t e of E n g l i s h U n i v e r s i ty Elżbieta Dlekay W Y W I A D Z W A L K E R E M P E R C Y P o w y ż s z y t e k s t j e s t w y w i a d e m ze z n a n y m p i s a r z e m a m e r y k a ń -s k i m W a l k e r e m Percy'. P e r c y u r o d z i ł si ę , m i e s z k a i t w o r z y na P o -ł u d n i u S t a n ó w Z j e d n o c z o n y c h . 3 e g o p o w i e ś c i są p o d w i e l o m a w z g l ę d a m i c h a r a k t e r y s t y c z n e d l a p i s a r s t w a z P o ł u d n i a / r e p r e z e n -t o w a n e g o p r z e z t a k i c h p i s a r z y ja k W i l l i a m F a u l k n e r , R o b e r t P e n W a r r e n , c z y te ż F l a n n e r y O ’C o n n o r . T a k i e t y p o w e w ą t k i w t w ó r -c z o ś -c i P e r -c y ’e g o to r e l i g i a i p r o b l e m y r a s o w e , c z y t e ż k onf ro n-t a c j a k o d e k s u d ż e n t e l m e ń s k i e g o ż r o z p a d e m n o r m m o r a l n y c h . Z d r u g i e j j e d n a k s t r o n y c e c h ą w y r ó ż n i a j ą c ą j e g o p o w i e ś c i j e s t w p ł y w , j a k i na p i s a r z a w y w a r ł a m y ś l e g z y s t e n c j a l n a . D y s k u s j i nad ty mi p r o b l e m a m i p o ś w i ę c o n y j e s t w y w i a d . P i o n i e r s k i m j e j a s p e k t e m j e s t z a s u g e r o w a n a p r z e z p r o w a d z ą c ą w y w i a d z b i e ż n o ś ć p r o b l e m a t y k i p o w i e ś c i P e r c y ’e g o z n i e k t ó r y m i z a ł o ż e n i a m i f i l o z o f i i P a s c a l a , p o w s z e c h n i e d z i ś u w a ż a n e g o za p r e k u r s o r a e g z y s t e n c j a l i z m u . P e r c y p r z y z n a j e s ł u s z n o ś ć te j t e -z i e i r o -z w i j a t e m a t w p ł y w u P a s c a l a na j e g o t w ó r c z o ś ć . t h r o u g h c o m r a d -S t u d i e s of Ł ó d ź 4 S e e W. P e г с у, The M e s s a g e in t he B o t t l e , N e w Y o r k 19 75 , p. 93.
